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Post by Ms Boku on Dec 27, 2006 10:18:13 GMT -5
The first time Ralph went into the dimension, he came out screaming in pain because of his chest and back. Yet after he rescued Bill, he came out and was fine. You think he would have had fresh scars and welts after his encounter with the Beast. Also, how come the Beast didn't seem to affect Bill? Why was it always after Ralph? That makes no sense at all. I agree here too. I wondered about that but just let be a passing thought.....
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2006 11:36:02 GMT -5
I'm watching this ep yet again, and something occured to me that I never thought of before, and don't know if someone's asked it in another thread, but when Ralph's looking for Bill... why doesn't he just holograph in on him? Granted, he ends up in Bill's apartment, but he'd told Rhonda how he'd been out all night looking for Bill. Wouldn't it have been easy enough to go to Bill's car to vibe off of (well, assuming he needs to, 'cause we know he can get holographs without vibing off a thing, but that's another topic). Is the fact that Sheila's "in there" stopping him from being able to holograph on his partner? I don't think so. Recall that after he got off the phone with Bill at Century City, he DID holograph in on Sheila dancing with dresses. I think MelMac may have a point about being unconscious, but as we have seen, Ralph DOES forget suit powers a LOT, so maybe his nerves were too frayed to remember. I do think Ralph's nerves would be frayed here too... given he had a gun drawn on him at point blank range. If Shelia fired, he'd probably been killed. And Bill could've been able to fight at least partially to allow Ralph to holograph in on him after that phone call. Or, since Ralph sees Bill with the dresses, maybe because Ralph uses Bill's hat, which is clothing, maybe the two are linked by touch when Bill handles the dresses. (OK... maybe that's farfetched... )
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 27, 2006 12:09:59 GMT -5
I don't think so. Recall that after he got off the phone with Bill at Century City, he DID holograph in on Sheila dancing with dresses. I think MelMac may have a point about being unconscious, but as we have seen, Ralph DOES forget suit powers a LOT, so maybe his nerves were too frayed to remember. I do think Ralph's nerves would be frayed here too... given he had a gun drawn on him at point blank range. If Shelia fired, he'd probably been killed. And Bill could've been able to fight at least partially to allow Ralph to holograph in on him after that phone call. Or, since Ralph sees Bill with the dresses, maybe because Ralph uses Bill's hat, which is clothing, maybe the two are linked by touch when Bill handles the dresses. (OK... maybe that's farfetched... ) I was thinking his nerves were more frayed wondering what happened to Bill to make him act like that. I don't think a gun being pulled on him was necessarily that scary. It HAS happened before without definite suit protection....and he has not gone bananas like that.
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 27, 2006 12:45:11 GMT -5
We see in "Best Desk Scenario" that Ralph cannot holograph in on Pam as he is so nervous about her being kidnapped. Only once Bill gets him to calm down and relax a little can he finally get a holograph. Without Bill to calm him down in "Beast in the Black" Ralph may have indeed been too over-wrought to properly use his holographing skills. I like this idea as it clarifies just how close they are to each other--Ralph being too nervous to even find his friend! Of course, Ralph no doubt feels quite responsible for events, too, having been the one to set up going into the house originally.
I think Ralph going to the psychic was vital--without the advice from the psychic, he'd have no idea how to save Bill, and "kill" Sheila once he had found Bill.
It's easy to be critical of plot in this episode, but if we can tear apart aspects of the plot in just about every episode of the series. In terms of some of HoudiniDerek's criticisms, some explanations can be made: 1. Old women often get duped into trusting those they shouldn't. 2. The house is quite large; there's no reason not to suppose that once she was wheel-chair bound, there wasn't a bedroom on the lower floor that we did not see. 3. Was Bill dead or not? I think this is more a fascinating line of thought than a frustrating one. If he was, did he have an after-death experience, even for just a second or two? That would make a good follow-up story, perhaps.
Mona
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 27, 2006 12:50:44 GMT -5
We see in "Best Desk Scenario" that Ralph cannot holograph in on Pam as he is so nervous about her being kidnapped. Only once Bill gets him to calm down and relax a little can he finally get a holograph. Without Bill to calm him down in "Beast in the Black" Ralph may have indeed been too over-wrought to properly use his holographing skills. I like this idea as it clarifies just how close they are to each other--Ralph being too nervous to even find his friend! Of course, Ralph no doubt feels quite responsible for events, too, having been the one to set up going into the house originally. I think Ralph going to the psychic was vital--without the advice from the psychic, he'd have no idea how to save Bill, and "kill" Sheila once he had found Bill. It's easy to be critical of plot in this episode, but if we can tear apart aspects of the plot in just about every episode of the series. In terms of some of HoudiniDerek's criticisms, some explanations can be made: 1. Old women often get duped into trusting those they shouldn't. 2. The house is quite large; there's no reason not to suppose that once she was wheel-chair bound, there wasn't a bedroom on the lower floor that we did not see. 3. Was Bill dead or not? I think this is more a fascinating line of thought than a frustrating one. If he was, did he have an after-death experience, even for just a second or two? That would make a good follow-up story, perhaps. Mona Good tie in to BEST DESK SCENARIO. I had forgotten that element and that does make a lot of sense. Good thinking, Mona. I find it odd though that AFTER talking to the psychic he is calm when he should be even MORE nervous about finding Bill. Telling me that my friend is possessed and needs to fight for his life in the Fourth Dimension where my magic suit doesn't work would not exactly inspire me with confidence. As for the old woman getting duped, the episode stated SEVERAL times that she did not trust Sheila. If she is THAT untrusting and still got duped, then she is dumb and should have known better. I agree there could have been a downstairs bedroom. I did not rule it out, but why would the wheelchair be upstairs if the bedroom is downstairs. To me, that implies ramps or elevators or something. I get upset with the wheelchair because it is such a STUPID way to die if that was the intent. And yes, Bill was dead. Cyler told him and Ralph felt the no pulse and had even stopped trying to save him. I agree that it would be neat to know if he had the "light at the end of the tunnel" sort of experience, but I have to firmly say that he appeared dead to everyone. As for the psychic, when viewing it with the BEST DESK tie-in you made, yes, it is definitely more plausible and I think that was the true intent...so good catch again, Mona.
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Post by MST3Claye on Dec 27, 2006 12:51:54 GMT -5
The first time Ralph went into the dimension, he came out screaming in pain because of his chest and back. Yet after he rescued Bill, he came out and was fine. You think he would have had fresh scars and welts after his encounter with the Beast. Also, how come the Beast didn't seem to affect Bill? Why was it always after Ralph? That makes no sense at all. I agree here too. I wondered about that but just let be a passing thought..... It's possible the wounds weren't as severe the second time. As you see he's dogging it through there with Bill, even though he stumbles and turns the wheelchair over with Bill.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 27, 2006 12:56:37 GMT -5
I agree here too. I wondered about that but just let be a passing thought..... It's possible the wounds weren't as severe the second time. As you see he's dogging it through there with Bill, even though he stumbles and turns the wheelchair over with Bill. True, but you think he would still be susceptible and you think Bill would be too.
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Post by MST3Claye on Dec 27, 2006 13:04:14 GMT -5
In terms of some of HoudiniDerek's criticisms, some explanations can be made: 1. Old women often get duped into trusting those they shouldn't. 2. The house is quite large; there's no reason not to suppose that once she was wheel-chair bound, there wasn't a bedroom on the lower floor that we did not see. Mona I agree there could have been a downstairs bedroom. I did not rule it out, but why would the wheelchair be upstairs if the bedroom is downstairs. To me, that implies ramps or elevators or something. I get upset with the wheelchair because it is such a STUPID way to die if that was the intent. To put reality into this like Mel has talked about with her fanfics being a bit more exact since we found Ralph's house and how many bedrooms are in that house. The article I found states that the house has 32 rooms. It's a mansion, though they don't call it that in the episode. I'd believe the suggestion of there being more bedrooms and on the upper floors. As for transportation. Considering the date of the house creation and how it looked in the episode to give off the age of it, I'd dismiss the elevator theory for obvious reasons. Ramps, I'm not so sure about especially traversing floors. What about giant size dumbwaiters? lol My one question out of the whole episode... WHY was the room bricked up? I don't think we have a wormhole, stargate, portal situation here. I figure that was just the suit reacting to the paranormal goings on in the house. Someone call the Ghost Hunters on this! So why else would they brick up the wall other than to give off a mystery/creepy type feel to it. Why I didn't check in on this thread sooner, I have no idea. (looks below)
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 27, 2006 13:08:08 GMT -5
I agree there could have been a downstairs bedroom. I did not rule it out, but why would the wheelchair be upstairs if the bedroom is downstairs. To me, that implies ramps or elevators or something. I get upset with the wheelchair because it is such a STUPID way to die if that was the intent. To put reality into this like Mel has talked about with her fanfics being a bit more exact since we found Ralph's house and how many bedrooms are in that house. The article I found states that the house has 32 rooms. It's a mansion, though they don't call it that in the episode. I'd believe the suggestion of there being more bedrooms and on the upper floors. As for transportation. Considering the date of the house creation and how it looked in the episode to give off the age of it, I'd dismiss the elevator theory for obvious reasons. Ramps, I'm not so sure about especially traversing floors. What about giant size dumbwaiters? lol My one question out of the whole episode... WHY was the room bricked up? I don't think we have a wormhole, stargate, portal situation here. I figure that was just the suit reacting to the paranormal goings on in the house. Someone call the Ghost Hunters on this! So why else would they brick up the wall other than to give off a mystery/creepy type feel to it. Why I didn't check in on this thread sooner, I have no idea. (looks below) Claye, that is a good question. After all, the real estate lady told Ralph that it was an old passage that led to the stables. They just bricked it off one day. What the hell for? So, the BEAST could move in and make camp? A little far-fetched, but you go ahead and call the Ghost Hunters.
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Post by MST3Claye on Dec 27, 2006 13:08:14 GMT -5
It's possible the wounds weren't as severe the second time. As you see he's dogging it through there with Bill, even though he stumbles and turns the wheelchair over with Bill. True, but you think he would still be susceptible and you think Bill would be too. Yeah, but I wonder since Bill is in and out of consciousness when he passes through.. Dead weight, but you see him somewhat help Ralph put himself back in the chair (acting or not?) maybe the Beast doesn't go after unconscious beings. I had another thought but it's putting WAY too much into it. The beast's purpose was to guard the dimension so I tossed out the idea quickly that maybe the Beast was helping Sheila and didn't harm Bill because he would be the host body for her. lol
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 27, 2006 13:09:28 GMT -5
True, but you think he would still be susceptible and you think Bill would be too. Yeah, but I wonder since Bill is in and out of consciousness when he passes through.. Dead weight, but you see him somewhat help Ralph put himself back in the chair (acting or not?) maybe the Beast doesn't go after unconscious beings. I had another thought but it's putting WAY too much into it. The beast's purpose was to guard the dimension so I tossed out the idea quickly that maybe the Beast was helping Sheila and didn't harm Bill because he would be the host body for her. lol Neat theory, but why not attack him on the way back out since Sheila lost the battle of Bill's body? {That sounds like something Josie would participate in}.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2006 13:13:09 GMT -5
I agree there could have been a downstairs bedroom. I did not rule it out, but why would the wheelchair be upstairs if the bedroom is downstairs. To me, that implies ramps or elevators or something. I get upset with the wheelchair because it is such a STUPID way to die if that was the intent. To put reality into this like Mel has talked about with her fanfics being a bit more exact since we found Ralph's house and how many bedrooms are in that house. The article I found states that the house has 32 rooms. It's a mansion, though they don't call it that in the episode. I'd believe the suggestion of there being more bedrooms and on the upper floors. As for transportation. Considering the date of the house creation and how it looked in the episode to give off the age of it, I'd dismiss the elevator theory for obvious reasons. Ramps, I'm not so sure about especially traversing floors. What about giant size dumbwaiters? lol My one question out of the whole episode... WHY was the room bricked up? I don't think we have a wormhole, stargate, portal situation here. I figure that was just the suit reacting to the paranormal goings on in the house. Someone call the Ghost Hunters on this! So why else would they brick up the wall other than to give off a mystery/creepy type feel to it. Why I didn't check in on this thread sooner, I have no idea. (looks below) It's actually quite possible there was an elevator in the mansion, just not the type we're used to. I've visited a few antique houses that have elevators to get from one floor to the next. These date as early as the 1900s, one of which I remember being in Corpus Christi. Whether or not here, it'd depend on a few factors, such as if there was reason to have one. The one I saw too is reminiscent of the one in "Here's Looking at You Kid," when Ralph is searching to find Bill. A dumbwaiter, however, wouldn't be a good idea given they had a pulley system and it was possible, unless chains were used, for the ropes to break. You'd also need some strength to pull it up. As far as the wall being bricked up, they say in the ep that the mansion used to be linked to the stables, but when it was torn down... there was no use for it so they bricked it up. 'Course, it'd been easier to brick it closer to the edge of the mansion and convert the unused space into a room. So... guess it was a way to create a portal afterall.
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Post by billswoman on Dec 27, 2006 13:17:00 GMT -5
I like the idea that maybe the Beast won't attack an unconscious person, not being able to sense him or her? And maybe it didn't mess with Sheila, because she's already DEAD, why attack the dead?
I think the part when Bill's getting back into the chair was sort of a boo-boo, leaving it in there and making it obvious Culp's helping out somewhat (kind of like in "Hand Painted Thai" when Ralph's scooching the sleeping Bill over, you can see RC sort of helps the process along.) I think Bill was supposed to be unconscious the whole time, although I don't know why. Does he get clocked on the head or something as they go in? Or perhaps he and Sheila are wrangling for control, so can't be bothered with controlling his body at the same time?
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Post by MST3Claye on Dec 27, 2006 13:20:14 GMT -5
To put reality into this like Mel has talked about with her fanfics being a bit more exact since we found Ralph's house and how many bedrooms are in that house. The article I found states that the house has 32 rooms. It's a mansion, though they don't call it that in the episode. I'd believe the suggestion of there being more bedrooms and on the upper floors. As for transportation. Considering the date of the house creation and how it looked in the episode to give off the age of it, I'd dismiss the elevator theory for obvious reasons. Ramps, I'm not so sure about especially traversing floors. What about giant size dumbwaiters? lol My one question out of the whole episode... WHY was the room bricked up? I don't think we have a wormhole, stargate, portal situation here. I figure that was just the suit reacting to the paranormal goings on in the house. Someone call the Ghost Hunters on this! So why else would they brick up the wall other than to give off a mystery/creepy type feel to it. Why I didn't check in on this thread sooner, I have no idea. (looks below) It's actually quite possible there was an elevator in the mansion, just not the type we're used to. I've visited a few antique houses that have elevators to get from one floor to the next. These date as early as the 1900s, one of which I remember being in Corpus Christi. Whether or not here, it'd depend on a few factors, such as if there was reason to have one. The one I saw too is reminiscent of the one in "Here's Looking at You Kid," when Ralph is searching to find Bill. A dumbwaiter, however, wouldn't be a good idea given they had a pulley system and it was possible, unless chains were used, for the ropes to break. You'd also need some strength to pull it up. As far as the wall being bricked up, they say in the ep that the mansion used to be linked to the stables, but when it was torn down... there was no use for it so they bricked it up. 'Course, it'd been easier to brick it closer to the edge of the mansion and convert the unused space into a room. So... guess it was a way to create a portal afterall. Another question that is based off of reality and not episode wise..... STABLE?? In the middle of Los Angeles or (storywise) near Century City?? You've seen the GoogleEarth view of it, unless this was pioneer times or something. lol I know I'm going way off tangient here. hehe
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 27, 2006 13:20:48 GMT -5
I like the idea that maybe the Beast won't attack an unconscious person, not being able to sense him or her? And maybe it didn't mess with Sheila, because she's already DEAD, why attack the dead? I think the part when Bill's getting back into the chair was sort of a boo-boo, leaving it in there and making it obvious Culp's helping out somewhat (kind of like in "Hand Painted Thai" when Ralph's scooching the sleeping Bill over, you can see RC sort of helps the process along.) I think Bill was supposed to be unconscious the whole time, although I don't know why. Does he get clocked on the head or something as they go in? Or perhaps he and Sheila are wrangling for control, so can't be bothered with controlling his body at the same time? After reading all of these ideas, maybe he wasn't unconscious, but dead. In the Fourth Dimension, maybe only ghosts and Ralph and the BEAST can survive. So, when Sheila left, Bill retreated to the death state and once Ralph got him back through, he was revived because he had "run the gauntlet" so to speak.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2006 13:26:14 GMT -5
Claye, Victorian times (late 1800s-early 1900s) would've had horses too for the carriages, so if it was built no later than the early 1900s, there still is that potential. The great San Francisco quake and fire afterward in 1906 was partially exacerbated by the fact they had horse-drawn firetrucks (which too either didn't carry much water in the trucks or weren't close to bodies of water). Cars really weren't that popular until the late-20s onward.
As far as Bill, I lean toward Bill being unconscious myself in the fourth dimension. Reason, Ralph doesn't react to Bill being cold when he touches Bill to get the handcuffs off and the keys later on. Given the time frame if you think about it, he'd been "dead" for long enough for his body to have been cold.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2006 18:29:00 GMT -5
Another funny thing here, the guy who is the foreman about to bulldoze the mansion played Officer Vince in "Emergency!" When I first watched this, I started chuckling because here I've been watching him at the site of wrecks and stuff in those episodes, and here he is about to bulldoze down a building.
One thing though... I'd sure like to know what it is exactly we're seeing through when Ralph rips off the bindings around Bill's ankles. It just looks odd to me, since I don't know if it's a mirror or some sort of time doughnut looking thing.
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Post by MST3Claye on Dec 27, 2006 21:40:47 GMT -5
tapestry? Stuff with cobwebs? A chair? I have no idea. HEY! Maybe it's a lamp shade.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2006 22:10:02 GMT -5
tapestry? Stuff with cobwebs? A chair? I have no idea. HEY! Maybe it's a lamp shade. Guess it could be a sculpture too, though it's odd, even for Mrs. Burrows given the rest of the place... Or... It could be the remains of that damn chandelier that seriously KO'd and/or killed Bill, letting Shelia enter him and raise havoc. (Or, I could just be silly and it's the talking doughnut from "City on the Edge of Forever" from 'Star Trek' (I like the ep too, BTW. )
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 28, 2006 13:00:47 GMT -5
Wow, comments have been flying quickly on this thread and all so interesting! I'm going back a few comments to the idea of whether Bill was dead or not.
Neither Cyler nor Ralph are medically oriented in any way. For one thing, finding a pulse in a person's neck can be hard to do--it's not just touch the neck and there you go. There are muscles and veins to go around and the trachea, etc. Just because Cyler palpated Bill's neck for one second doesn't mean he made a correct diagnosis. As for Ralph, look at the wrong way he does CPR; we do NOT sit on someone's abdomen to do that. For one thing, it is HARDER to breath with someone sitting on you, and so is contra-indicated when you are trying to GET them to breathe! We take one demerit away from Ralph's "egghead" status for that stunt!
And to be even more medically pendantic, if the chandelier had indeed crushed Bill's skull enough to kill him, then blood, brain, skull bits, etc would be littering the floor and Bill's hair, clothes, etc. So, given that he just has a "bump" at the hospital; and neither Ralph nor Cyler could probably find their OWN pulses, let alone someone's weaker unconscious one; and Ralph could have killed a failing Bill by sitting on him, anyway, (and who wants to think that Ralph, not the chandelier, actually killed Bill?), ;-), I like to think that Bill was only grazed by the chandelier and was simply unconscious when Sheila took over.
The eye color change was a way cool method of showing that, btw.
(Dr) Mona
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