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Post by The J-Man on Aug 6, 2005 12:43:13 GMT -5
I know some of you out there dis the Culp-written episodes, but now that Season Three is out on DVD, how can you watch Ralph's stirring pro-democracy speech at the end of "Vanity..." and not be blown away?
Beautifully written and directed by Culp. Acted to perfection by Katt. It only gives me goose pimples more and more with each year. Whether that's because our own democracy teeters on the brink more and more these days, or just because I'm looking at the world through older and wearier eyes, I don't know.
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Post by MiltonMaxwell on Aug 7, 2005 9:47:55 GMT -5
Well, I thought "Lilacs, Mr. Maxwell" was much much better. I did consider "Vanity, Says the Preacher" to be one of the better 3rd Season episodes but it looked to me like Culp took a two parter and squashed into into 1. It just seemed like a jumbled mess at times. I also did not understand the logic of the little Green Guy wanting to replace Bill Maxwell with a kid who just murdered his brother in order to supress democracy! And stirring speech or not, it seemed like too quick a conversion for the family which not ten minutes before was willing to butcher thousands of people including Bill Maxwell. Now, all of the sudden, they were protecting democracy? I liked the idea, but it needed some serious fleshing out, perhaps by expanding it to two parts.
Another question related to this. I know that the two kids were Bill Culp's real life children and once thought they were suppose to be Maxwell's illegitimate children, but on watching it again, it appears that there is no bond whatsoever between their mother and Bill or between Bill and the children. Am I dreaming?
Finally, who was the "young" Bill Maxwell in the "old" film clip? Does anyone know?
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Post by The J-Man on Aug 7, 2005 10:08:11 GMT -5
Only the older son is implied to be Bill's love child. The younger one, who is identical to his father, definitely isn't. But the older one, who doesn't look like his "father" and, if anything, looks like Bill Maxwell...that's another story.
The older one also made the comment that his parents were married "with Mr. Maxwell's blessing". Why did they need Maxwell's blessing, hmm? Why was Maxwell so blown away to see the woman? Why did it seem so important to her that Bill meet her oldest son? The older one is definitely Bill's kid.
As to who plays young Bill in the newsreel footage, that's a good question. Is it the other Culp boy with a different wig or something, or someone else altogether. Greenguy, you know about these things. Help.
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Post by billrules on Aug 7, 2005 20:20:18 GMT -5
Hi J-Man (and all), New to the board, but not to the show. Have loved it from the beginning. Yes, I always thought it was inferred that the older son was Bill's. Still, that being the case, I would have expected to see a little more interaction/reaction there between the two of them. (Maybe if the show had gone to a fourth season, "Francisco", having been sleep-taught by the green guys, would have come to visit "Dad" on summer vacations. <just kidding>) Have never read the script, though. Wonder if there was something actually written in that - which really confirmed it. It's a good question about who played "young Bill". I was trying to figure out which one of the Culp boys it was. As you say, maybe it was the son who played the older one, with wig. I always wondered, if young Bill was possibly played by Culp's third son, and if it just went uncredited. Does everybody know that Culp's present wife and youngest daughter (who was a baby at the time) also appear in that episode? Guess it was a real family production.
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Post by The J-Man on Aug 8, 2005 22:46:48 GMT -5
Does everybody know that Culp's present wife and youngest daughter (who was a baby at the time) also appear in that episode? Guess it was a real family production. I figured that was Culp's youngest. No other reason to give a baby a close-up. The kid was also seen on Saturday Night Live earlier that year (wearing a GAH costume) when guest-host Culp introduced Musical Guest The Charlie Daniels Band.
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Post by billswoman on Aug 9, 2005 13:42:53 GMT -5
Oh wow, just reading the comments on here, I think I'd better stop.
Does this site encourage spoiler warnings? Or do we assume now that S3 is out, everyone's already watched all of the eps?
Sigh, yet another ep I need to get.
BTW, people DIS Culp's writing??? Mergatroyd!
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Post by greenguy on Aug 9, 2005 14:28:30 GMT -5
how can you watch Ralph's stirring pro-democracy speech at the end of "Vanity..." and not be blown away? Beautifully written and directed by Culp. Acted to perfection by Katt. I so totally agree. Katt's performance in that, coupled with Culp's writing and direction, not to mention the editing of the greenguys overhead, and the reaction of the crowd, mixed with some great GAH music/sound FX for back up gives the scene a powerful feel. One of my favorite scenes, if not my favorite of the whole series.
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Post by greenguy on Aug 9, 2005 14:37:54 GMT -5
As to who plays young Bill in the newsreel footage, that's a good question. Is it the other Culp boy with a different wig or something, or someone else altogether. Greenguy, you know about these things. Help. The older brother Francisco, (forgive me for not knowing which brother is Joseph, and which is Jason Culp) played young Bill in the newsreel footage, and the young Roberto was played by the other Culp boy who also played the son named Roberto.
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Post by The J-Man on Aug 9, 2005 21:13:47 GMT -5
Does this site encourage spoiler warnings? Or do we assume now that S3 is out, everyone's already watched all of the eps? I don't think spoiler warnings should be required for anything that was first broadcast over twenty years ago, and rerun several times since. I assume that everyone's seen all the eps since before the DVDs came out, even if it was a long time ago.
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scenario
Agent
"We all do what makes us feel good."
Posts: 335
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Post by scenario on Aug 11, 2005 7:16:31 GMT -5
I've always had very mixed feelings on this episode. There is the case to be made that this is the most bold and daring GAH episode ever produced, with a story that appeals to your intellecutal side like none before,....but on the other hand this also comes across as the worst episode of the series, badly edited and totally ignoring established series plot premises.
I'm going to throw in my sour grapes and disagree with everyone about Ralph's speech at the end of the episode, it did not stir me. I felt that it was ham fisted, to me it was more like a speech Captain Kirk would have made in an old original series Star Trek episode. With that "swear to the power above" stuff, it seemed more like a lecture Kirk would give to some planet that is just freed from an evil computer and/or finally discovering to think for themselves.
-scenario-
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Post by greenguy on Aug 11, 2005 9:20:44 GMT -5
but on the other hand this also comes across as the worst episode of the series, badly edited and totally ignoring established series plot premises. I'm going to throw in my sour grapes and disagree with everyone about Ralph's speech at the end of the episode, it did not stir me. I felt that it was ham fisted, to me it was more like a speech Captain Kirk would have made in an old original series Star Trek episode. With that "swear to the power above" stuff, it seemed more like a lecture Kirk would give to some planet that is just freed from an evil computer and/or finally discovering to think for themselves. -scenario- I have to agree with you on those two points, especially ignoring established plot premises. Thinking about the Trek comment, yes it does sound alot like a speech that Kirk would have given. However if using the suit, and the greenguys to get a group of people stand up for themselves and fight more power to him.
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Post by Maxwell - F.B.I. on Aug 11, 2005 10:46:00 GMT -5
Cool! This thread rocks and I like where it's going! To toss in my two cents on "Vanity", I orignally despised this episode. However, now that I've watched it again recently (a few times, in fact), I can see newfound appreciation for the 'dramatic' nature of the episode (Scott has said he liked the fact this episode took the show back into a more 'serious' type of plot-line, and I see his point now).
I still feel it's all a bit 'too heavy-handed', and I'm dumbfounded at the whole idea that Bill could have helped overthrow the government when they make it quite clear he can't even speak the language - kinda makes things a tad more of a challenge, no?
I also felt the scene where the ship came back at the end was totally 'dead' in feeling, although I realize they pretty much had to piecework that together because the show was cancelled and the budget was gone - it's just a shame that such a great event like the ship returning just didn't work in the end - never did understand the whole 'people behind the windows' thing completely either. And Ralph's speech? Didn't 'move' me at all, although I can see its intention - and I love the 'Star Trek' comparison, by the way.
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Post by greenguy on Aug 11, 2005 11:06:23 GMT -5
I can see newfound appreciation for the 'dramatic' nature of the episode (Scott has said he liked the fact this episode took the show back into a more 'serious' type of plot-line, and I see his point now). I still feel it's all a bit 'too heavy-handed', and I also felt the scene where the ship came back at the end was totally 'dead' in feeling, although I realize they pretty much had to piecework that together because the show was cancelled and the budget was gone - it's just a shame that such a great event like the ship returning just didn't work in the end - never did understand the whole 'people behind the windows' thing completely either. And Ralph's speech? Didn't 'move' me at all, although I can see its intention - and I love the 'Star Trek' comparison, by the way. Your're right, even though I bounce back and forth on a big portion of this episode, I do love the fact it's a return to the more serious type of take on the series as seen in season one. A huge problem with this episode as mentioned above was money. It's way too ambitious for the budget it had. I've never totally understood the whole "sleeper" aspect either. As for the speech. Let's see if I can be articulate enough to explain my feelings on it. It "moved" me in the sense that Ralph was doing more than busting the bad guys. The suit was being used to bring forth a goal that in the long run would benefit more than stopping some gunrunners, or a gambling scheme. The suit and it's powers were used to put a whole nation on the right track. I still say even though "heavy handed" it was still well written, and superbly acted by Katt. "I don't care who thinks I'm a comic book...and who doesn't...." A less talented actor could have made the whole speech sound silly, it didn't come across that way with Katt.
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Post by Carlini on Aug 12, 2005 14:29:21 GMT -5
I'm not yet sure what to think about this episode...
It WOULD make a great "last episode", what with the more serious story line and the green guys coming back. But it just seemed somewhat anticlimactic to me. And confusing. Does anyone understand about the "students of life" piece?
Still, after watching the episode a second time I liked it better. It may grow on me. I just can't make heads nor tails of the comatose backup duos.
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Post by The J-Man on Aug 13, 2005 1:27:51 GMT -5
...and I'm dumbfounded at the whole idea that Bill could have helped overthrow the government when they make it quite clear he can't even speak the language... Bill speaks the language.
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Post by MiltonMaxwell on Aug 13, 2005 8:27:14 GMT -5
On the whole sleep therapy thing, I can try to explain, but I don't think it worked well and didn't make sense in light of the Pilot episode and Don't Mess Around with Jim.
Basically, in the 1980s there was a popular (and now disproven) psychological theory that you could learn in your sleep. Basically, the Green Guy was taken cantidates and teaching them how to be good Superheroes with Sleep Therapy. Of course, another word for this is "brainwashing." In anycase, the Green Guy was getting new heroes ready for when our heroes retire.
Again, that particular scene didn't work at all for me and I didn't really understand why the Green Guy would be so eager to replace Bill with a man who had just threatened to kill a thousand innocent people. The Green Guy then gets mad at Bill for being so gullible! Sheesh!
Still, Culp had a good premise and a good idea but Lilacs, Mr. Maxwell was his best script.
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Post by Carlini on Aug 13, 2005 10:39:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I kind of thought that was the explanation, but hoped there was a better one! Oh well.
Not a very good plan on the part of the greenguy and his mini-me associate - I don't think the Egyptian-corpse-looking reptile beings in one chamber would have had an easier time saving earth than Ralph and Bill. It certainly would have been harder to blend in, no?
Yes, "Lilacs" is better, I agree. Although there is something about "what could have been" with "Vanity" that makes it strangely attractive.
"Brainwashing is another word for it" LOL! It's true! Very crude for the advanced beings to resort to such tricks.
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Post by deadzoneleaperhero on Aug 14, 2005 14:18:26 GMT -5
In a way, I think I understand the "sleeper students". I have been toying with a Virtual Series called the Next Greatest American Hero and I want to focus quite a bit on the green guys and their agenda. Perhaps it is because of Ralph's logo, but it reminds me of the Green Lantern, and for those who know about that superhero, there is an entire legion of Green lanterns. I believe the green guys eventually want to have more than one suit on Earth, perhaps 7 scattered over the world (6 more Instruction books out there if the new hero can find another like himself!). Having Ralph in LA can't stop everything and prevent Earth from looking like their homeworld, especially in today's world of global terrorism. The Green Guys probably have an agenda with different worlds, and the sleeper students is their way of preserving worlds throughout the galaxy.
Speaking of instruction books, where is the original one in Palmdale? Is it still out there? Did someone pick it up? Did the Green guys retrieve it? Hmmmmm....
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Post by The J-Man on Aug 14, 2005 21:32:56 GMT -5
The older brother Francisco, (forgive me for not knowing which brother is Joseph, and which is Jason Culp) played young Bill in the newsreel footage, and the young Roberto was played by the other Culp boy who also played the son named Roberto. Y'know, I'm having a hard time buying that Jason Culp also played young Bill in the newsreel footage. I'm not saying it's impossible, but Francisco and Young Bill just look a little too different. Are we sure it isn't an uncredited Joshua Culp?
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Post by culpkatt on Aug 24, 2005 2:19:17 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I was always under the assumption that the newsreel footage was actually a young Robert Culp taken from his 50s western television show 'Trackdown.'
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