Some new thoughts on The Greatest American HeroINE

[jasonrobertyates]

I think for me I think of it as cannon simply because it gives SOME KIND of closure. Very mixed feelings.

[greenguy]

Mr. said:

Vanity: Well you'd have to see it to know exactly what I'm talking about.

Aside from the muddledness of the plot - which I can maybe blame on the rushed production I heard plagued this episode.... I was bothered by the pat ending (how was the letter and Ralph's speech supposed to suddenly make everything alright at the end?) and the use of the Green Guys.

In every other appearance, including Heroine, the Green Guys appeared in Palmdale. They sought them out there or they were dragged there. This is the only time the UFO appears elsewhere, let alone outside of the U.S.

Now, that's not to say the UFO can't appear elsewhere, there were implications of a one-time Mexican suit wearer in the episode as well as plans for a Greatest Russian Hero two parter - so I can roll with that ...kinda.
My bigger question is why did the green guys have to appear then? The situation comparedwith many other episodes, didn't seem big enough to warrent them coming down and intervening. Had this been Operation: Spoilsport or something, I could maybe understand- that's armegeddon/nuclear war at stake. But the stakes here seemed almost petty in comparison.

Also once in the ship, Ralph and Bill make a bunch of revaltions- mostly assumptions on thier part which we the viewers have to kinda take as 'official' even though it doens't entirely jive with what we saw in the Pilot.

Ralph and Bill see a bunch of aliens in pair sin cryo or hibernation stored away for safe keeping on board the UFO. Each of the pairs are being 'taught' like sleep therapy or prepared to become another team to gain a suit. The assumption is that these would be teams on other planets or maybe other parts of the Earth - but Bill immediatly think these are thier own replacements should they fail in thier mission to save the planet.

Well as I recall, none of the pairs were human. I find it hard to beleive that the Green Guys would send in aliens with the suit and freak the average bystande rout even more than a guy running around in a cape and longjohns. Also this implies that before Ralph and Bill were approche din the desert- they too were whisked up for a time and sleep-taught to be prepared as a team to take on the suit at some point before the Pilot which I find hard to swallow.

It's redundant for one, and it also means they could take almost anyone and prep them to take on the suit and its responsibilities. One of the reasons I like the characters so much is that you assume they are at thier core and especially with Ralph- findamentally good people who will do the right thing. It's because of those reasons that they were chosen for the task they wer given. Vanity's revelation strips that away.

I'm all behind the notion that there are other people on Earth in other parts of the world or in the universe who are given suits or technology to help thier people - but the way Culp presented it felt out of synch with the rest of the series.

Or maybe I missed something but I've read the script and seen this episode several times and I don't think I'm getting the wrong idea here.

I'd welcome any discussion on this though.

-Mr H

While Vanity was not the best episode, it was a welcome return to the more serious, adult themed sort of episode that was produced the enitire 1st season. I do believe the rushed production and almost no money contributed to it's muddledness, as you put it. Yes it was a pat ending no doubt about it. But obviously we are supposed to believe that Ralph's speech,not the letter, it was only to inform the people of the political plot to take over the country So at the end in the guise of their own countries super hero he was supposed to inspire the people to rise and take back their country as a democratic society.

As to why the greenguys were there. I think it was a pretty heavy situation. Not world destruction, but yet Bill's desire to use the suit for partly his own personal gain to relive what he had once done in his youth was enough to get the aliens to intervene.

Actually one pair of individuals in the sleep chambers were human. The 1st pair we see are a man and woman, she even has a wedding ring on. Then we see the 2 beings in spacesuits. And finally the mummy pair, which includes the lizard creature, and what looks like another alien made up from half of an old Don Post Darth Vader mask. It was always my thinking that those "sleepers" the man and woman were Ralph and Bill's replacements. The others, replacements for their own worlds versions of Ralph and Bill.

As for it implying Ralph and Bill were taken aboard before the pilot, not really. This could be something new the greenguys have came up with AFTER Ralph was given the suit. Although I do agree with you totally about Ralph and Bill getting chosen because they are funamentally good people. But even good people can be carried away from time to time. Remember Don't Mess Around With Jim? Power corrupts...even Bill wanted his own private crime center with pool. I could mention what happens to Ralph and the suit in TGAHeroine, but that was so out of character it disgusted even me.

So to me it wasn't so out of synch. Although I didn't care for the so called answers from the greenguys. Or the assumptions made by the guys while they were on board. But I'm sure it was left vague on purpose.

This is just my own opinion and I'm not trying to sway you over Mr. H., it's just the way I interpreted the episode. Many fans that I've encountered either love or hate Vanity.

[Mr. H]

I cna understand that. Although it's been argued Vanity Says the Preacher provides the best kind of classic Cannell closure to a series. The heroes face a point where they contemplate giving up what they do/sliptting up/being stopped by the greenguys (in this case) but in the end resolve to not take that road and keep on going... off into the sunset so to speak.

Granted it's a stretch.

And the closure part of Ralph with Bill was the best par tof the Heroine pilt so I understand that view. But seeing as it's really a pilot of a new series, more of an introduction of Holly than an exit for Ralph - not to mention funky continuity again with the Green Guys. I just look at it as a possible 'what-if?" But hardly definitive.

[greenguy]

I agree, Ralph and Pam's exit from TGAHeroine was the best part. Although I did enjoy the scene aboard the spaceship. I would rather look at it as a dream. I just can't bring myself to associate it with the rest of the series.

[jasonrobertyates]

Galactica 1980 ;D

[greenguy]

jasonrobertyates said:

Galactica 1980 ;D

Exactly....except sometimes I feel the need to torment myself, so I bring out Galactica 1980 and watch a couple.

[jasonrobertyates]

Yeah they are a guilty pleasure.

[Mr. H]

Yeah I dunno what's worse... trying to watch Seaosn 2 Buck, Galactica 1980 or War of the Worlds the Second Invasion.... although Heroine might still beat them all by a smidge.

Good points on Vanity Greenguy. I knew there was a human pair in there, just wasn't sure. It's been a year or two since I popped this one in. You're right of course, just as it was implied ralph and Bill were sleep tuaght, it's equally possible they were not and that this was a new trick the Green Guys learned. Although who's to say sleep teaching will foolproof these folks- Human or Alien into not being possibly corrupted in the future?

I like to also think that those pairs were for an entirely other purporse and Ralph and Bill just jumped the gun on quick conclusions and the Green Guys let em think that so they'd get back on track.

The situation was certainly dire and the important issue of starting to use the suit for personal gain is a valid one - but I still felt the situation wasn't big enough to warrent them coming down at that point. If Ralph and Bill had been having nothing but a giant losing streak due to bickering or personal gain - it might have made more sense.

I think the bottom line is this episode didn't nearly live up to its potential. It had good moments, and I think the ideas wer ein the right place, it was simply too ambitious for that show in many ways.

Whatever faults Culp had in writing GAH in his three scripts (but 2 produced episodes) he generally had some good ideas to start from. I still love the idea of Ralph solving old cases at the Bureau and I give him mass kudos for the scene where Bill silently guides Ralph to find the bugs in the apartment in Liliacs. Really showed a great maturity and progression in their partnership.

I just really wish Cannell had sat down and written a proper 2 hour finale send-off for the show..but then I realize I'm dreaming.

[jasonrobertyates]

No doubt. What does Cannell think of GAHeroine?

[MagicJammies]

While I agree that GAHeroine is pretty pathetic, I have to accept that it is canon. I don't think you can rule something out based on personal taste. You may discount it, and not accept it, but it is still canon.

As a Star Wars fan, I know all to well about accepting the good with the bad, especially when it is canon. And then there's that whole Greedo or Han shooting first thing where canon contradicts itself, but I'll digress... ;D

You can argue about the fact that GAHeroine wasn't aired in a certain time period or on a particular network , but the fact remains that it was produced and released. They also saw fit to include it on the DVDs so that it can be watched and criticized by viewers. Therefore, canon.

I actually like the fact that they produced something that closed the chapter on Ralph's time with the Magic Jammies. Sure, they could have done a better job with it, but there's no reworking it now.

As for it's appearance in the Season 1 DVD, there's what, the pilot and 7 whole episodes? They probably wanted to fill the set out, since there are 22 episodes in Season 2 and 14 in 3.

By the way, does someone have access to the original, longer version of the GAHerione script?

[The J-Man]

By the way, does someone have access to the original, longer version of the GAHerione script?

The full, 200 page script can be purchased here:
www.scriptcity.net/

They also offer the scripts for 16 other GAH episodes, plus the unproduced, kick-ass, Culp-written script that was supposed to be the first season finale: "The Long Fall at Ten, Two and Four"

It's been quite a few years since I've had occasion to buy anything from them, but I've always been satisfied.

[jasonrobertyates]

Hey thanks for that great link JMAN. I am going to have to get me some of those.

[BillSC]

Howdy All;

First off, congratulations on the new board; it's fantastic.

As for TGAHeroine, I used to wonder that since Ralph had to pass the suit on to someone else, what was to prevent him from passing it on to his wife, Pam? Just curious.

BTW, a few years ago, I posted an alternate ending for the Greatest American Heroine installment. So I thought I'd submit it again and see what the opinion of the board is. I can't remember it word for word so I'll do the best I can. Here 'tis.

The fight is going on in the bar and all of a sudden someone pulls a gun on Bill and when the gun goes off, Bill suddenly bolts up from the back seat of a car, giving the impression of someone who just woke from a nightmare. He's breathing heavy, sweating and a bit disoriented. Suddenly we see Ralph looking back at him from the front seat. Ralph says "What's the matter, Bill, have a bad dream?" "You know, it's bad enough when you drag me along on these stake-outs without falling asleep while I'm talking to you." Bill, still a bit disoriented says "What were you saying?" Then Ralph says "I was just saying that there are times when I wish I could just turn this suit over to someone else and be done with it." As Ralph is saying this, Bill looks at a paper bag in the back seat. He sees Holly's face on the bag and the name "Holly's Health-Burgers" above it and asks Ralph, "What's this?" Ralph looks back and says, "That's the food I brought along, I get tired of the junk your always bringing." "Who's that on the bag?" Ralph says "C'mon, Bill, that's Holly Hathaway, president of "Holly's Health-Burgers. Remember she bought up the Hamburger Heaven chain after we put them out of the drug business." "Boy, that must've been some nightmare you had." Bill just looks up at Ralph and says, "Kid, you hit the nail on the head, that's exactly what it was...... a nightmare."

[jasonrobertyates]

;D Thats a great ending. I think I had that dream. HA!

[The J-Man]

I used to wonder that since Ralph had to pass the suit on to someone else, what was to prevent him from passing it on to his wife, Pam?

The exact same thing that prevented Ralph from keeping the suit in the first place. Sellecca, like Katt, was contractually bound to another ongoing series at that time. Nobody sat around saying "Hey, wouldn't be cool to write Ralph and Pam out of the show?" They were both simply unavailable. They couldn't take on a GAH revival even if they wanted to.

It was gonna be Culp with a new co-star...or nuthin'.

And I know that many of you who post here wish they had chosen the latter.

[jasonrobertyates]

They could always do a new show with a new owner. Maybe a younger one for the WB audience. Stick some Smallville quality writers. Cool new soundtrack. It would work. But what ever they do I just hope they dont make a new Ralph or Maxwell. Just pass the suit on like a Green Lantern ring.

[The J-Man]

Um...isn't that exactly what they tried to do in "GAHeroine"?

And it went over like a lead balloon with about 99% of the people who post here.

[jasonrobertyates]

I think the common issue with GAHeroine was the bad acting and story.

[greenguy]

I think it was possible for TGAHeroine to work, but it would have needed to had a better script for starters. Plus the lead was totally mis-cast. I would have had a much better shot if Cannell would have written the script.

If a new film is ever made, I too would rather see the suit passed onto someone else. Not new actors in the roles of Ralph and Bill. BUT if getting new faces for Ralph and Bill is the way to go, then casting would be double trouble. So I'd hope it would be done right.

We won't ever see our favorites back for a reunion now. I believe it would have happened in the 90's when Katt wanted to do it, had something not got in the way.

[MyTatuo]

Um, can someone start a new thread please? This is kinda ridiculous! (Although I love seeing the "hot topic" flaming icon...) ;D