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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 18, 2007 15:55:46 GMT -5
Holly and Bill could have worked...they were a team...just a different one. IMHO only - didn't have the same charm. Holly was too perfect to Bill's truer real life (and better acted) persona. It doesn't help that you are biased from the start.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 18, 2007 17:22:42 GMT -5
IMHO only - didn't have the same charm. Holly was too perfect to Bill's truer real life (and better acted) persona. It doesn't help that you are biased from the start. No, that's just the fact... afterall, if you listen to the lines the green guys say first, they were considering erasing Bill's memory at first ("Do you think that we should let Mr. Maxwell too retain his memories?") to becoming Holly's partner. Even though yes it's cut, that's a drastic change, and makes me wonder if the "change of heart" was more because Culp was available.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 18, 2007 22:21:32 GMT -5
It doesn't help that you are biased from the start. No, that's just the fact... afterall, if you listen to the lines the green guys say first, they were considering erasing Bill's memory at first ("Do you think that we should let Mr. Maxwell too retain his memories?") to becoming Holly's partner. Even though yes it's cut, that's a drastic change, and makes me wonder if the "change of heart" was more because Culp was available. I think it was something that had never been done so they were not considering it until Ralph mentioned it. After all, no other partner continued on that we know of, so why would they think Bill would?
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Post by MelMac on Dec 18, 2007 22:27:26 GMT -5
No, that's just the fact... afterall, if you listen to the lines the green guys say first, they were considering erasing Bill's memory at first ("Do you think that we should let Mr. Maxwell too retain his memories?") to becoming Holly's partner. Even though yes it's cut, that's a drastic change, and makes me wonder if the "change of heart" was more because Culp was available. I think it was something that had never been done so they were not considering it until Ralph mentioned it. After all, no other partner continued on that we know of, so why would they think Bill would? In "Vanity," the green guy asks if they should take the suit away from them. Ralph was not a central player into Bill's choices there (i.e. the revolution and such) but he was going to be removed from the suit, but fortunately the gg's had a change of heart. "Heroine," from what is filmed only (I wish I knew the script), Bill did not stop Ralph from digressing into the ego issue when Ralph would've stopped at nothing to stop Bill (basically same scenario as the above in "Vanity"). Ergo, why is it fine for Ralph to lose the suit because of Bill's transgression while Bill could get a free ride in "GAHeroine" for Ralph's. They were a team... and should've been punished as such, so why the change in heart? (Sorry... him being assigned as a teammate to Holly is not Bill's punishment, not given the gg's comments ).
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 18, 2007 22:35:14 GMT -5
Ralph WAS a central player because he brought the suit into it. Had he not gone, they might not have shown up at all. And from what is filmed, you do NOT know that Bill did not try and work on Ralph. It doesn't show Pam doing it until later either, but that does not mean that they didn't try. Ego has a funny way of going on without the other people...just like in VANITY, Bill was going ahead with the plan. And Bill is not getting a free ride. He is doing the job. Ralph lost focus while Bill didn't. Even in VANITY, Bill gets back on the wagon pretty quickly. Ralph didn't. He lost the suit. Ralph stood up for Bill though and the GG Council decides that Bill's usefulness may continue. Obviously Ralph's is finished though. You are a little one-sided aren't you?
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Post by MelMac on Dec 19, 2007 16:29:23 GMT -5
Ralph WAS a central player because he brought the suit into it. Had he not gone, they might not have shown up at all. And from what is filmed, you do NOT know that Bill did not try and work on Ralph. It doesn't show Pam doing it until later either, but that does not mean that they didn't try. Ego has a funny way of going on without the other people...just like in VANITY, Bill was going ahead with the plan. And Bill is not getting a free ride. He is doing the job. Ralph lost focus while Bill didn't. Even in VANITY, Bill gets back on the wagon pretty quickly. Ralph didn't. He lost the suit. Ralph stood up for Bill though and the GG Council decides that Bill's usefulness may continue. Obviously Ralph's is finished though. You are a little one-sided aren't you? IMHO, you are one-sided, as my opinion is just as valid as yours. You might like Pam, Mona like Bill, but my favorite is Ralph and my opinion is what the writers did to the character was wrong, given that Katt had been guaranteed two years to do the show again had he chosen to. I still feel that because he decided to honor his "Mason" commitment and Connie her "Hotel" one (she could've quit to go back to "GAH" despite ABC saying she couldn't cross networks), they both ended up getting one of the worst reasons to remove characters from the show. The goodbye is good, but the reason behind it was not. Point is, Ralph almost lost the suit because of Bill's screwup. He was going to have to be there because he had to rescue Bill from his bullheadedness that got him drugged and kidnapped. He could've walked away with Ralph when he confronted him, but he did not. Bill's vanity almost cost two people their lives - and would've if the gg's weren't involved. We do not know if Bill would've been in that scenario regardless of Ralph and the suit. Sword cuts both ways there. And, in "GAHeroine" Bill would not give up on him, but regardless it is implied there. He and Pam apparently tried, but it looks like Bill gave up on him based on what was filmed. He doesn't appear again until the search. Also, since it's been tossed about as to how do we not know if Bill tried to stop him, how do we know that Bill was NOT benefiting from Ralph's reveal - as we do NOT know exactly what type of office he is in. The script could say that Bill had a boost in job rating and such too, but we don't know. We do not know that he is JUST doing his job, nor do we not know that he was NOT getting a free ride. So, how do we know that Bill did NOT lose focus too - even for a while? It might explain why he apparently doesn't try to stop Ralph - because in Bill's defense, I do not see him being so reluctant to talk about his feelings and stopping Ralph that it would escalate to Ralph appearing on "SNL." Ralph would've been knocked out by Bill and tied up until he came to all his senses (literal and metaphorical). My point is, Bill not being there just makes it implied he gave up on Ralph after trying once or twice. The dialog is contradictory in the ship regardless of what is implied about Ralph's ego increasing or Bill trying to stop Ralph or bailing out. If the gg's were considering removing Bill's memory, and had to discuss whether or not to let Pam remember too, it does seem very weird for them to suddenly go to "OK, Bill can be the teammate." They were also still reluctant to have him as the teammate, so it is implied they feel that Bill is at least partially responsible for not getting Ralph on the straight and narrow.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 19, 2007 16:35:01 GMT -5
I don't care either way. I think it would have been fine if the original team was there. I think it is fine and realistic the way it was done. One sided people usually don't have other options. Everyone was written realistically in the HEROINE pilot. Just because your favorite character was not written the way you want does not mean it was not realistic. Again, if Katt had cared or thought it not right, he could have said NO to do it. It has been done in the past. And the dialogue in the ship might be contrary to you, but it seems fine. Ralph suggested something the GG Council had not considered, so they changed their minds. Easy enough. As for VANITY, Ralph was there to try and work with Bill. In other episodes, Bill was there when Ralph threw it in. It makes sense that Bill tried to reason with Ralph not to get too public about the suit. It may not to you. That's fine. You can have your opinion...I never said anything against that. However, your opinion can still be one-sided. Coincidentally, more than just Mona like Bill.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 19, 2007 17:07:21 GMT -5
I don't care either way. I think it would have been fine if the original team was there. I think it is fine and realistic the way it was done. One sided people usually don't have other options. Everyone was written realistically in the HEROINE pilot. Just because your favorite character was not written the way you want does not mean it was not realistic. Again, if Katt had cared or thought it not right, he could have said NO to do it. It has been done in the past. And the dialogue in the ship might be contrary to you, but it seems fine. Ralph suggested something the GG Council had not considered, so they changed their minds. Easy enough. As for VANITY, Ralph was there to try and work with Bill. In other episodes, Bill was there when Ralph threw it in. It makes sense that Bill tried to reason with Ralph not to get too public about the suit. It may not to you. That's fine. You can have your opinion...I never said anything against that. However, your opinion can still be one-sided. Coincidentally, more than just Mona like Bill. With respects to Mona, I do not lust after Ralph or look at Katt anymore than an actor. My respect for the actor includes that I do not have M-rated fantasies or anything of the like. I also do not always find ways to make my favorite character right all the time. I know in "GAHeroine" he screwed up - regardless of my opinion of canonity - and gave you a list of what he's done wrong in the show (as far as his acts). So... IMHO, your opinion about my one-sidedness being moreso than Mona with Bill is flawed. But you can be one-sided in an opinion too. That's why it's an opinion, not a statement of fact. IMHO, Ralph would not go that drastically into an ego trip given that Pam and Bill are stubborn enough to knock sense into him. That is shown a few times in the series. IMHO, Pam and Bill are poorly portrayed in "GAHeroine" as well, as both do not do what they normally would do. In fact, this is weird, but based on the ep if the ego got that bad, I could see Pam leaving Ralph, not just doing the scene in the Beetle where she's frustrated. Pam would not let Ralph get that arrogant either based on the show, and I think would at least separate with him for a while until he figured out what was important. She is still a strong woman and just standing by with him not listening is something I do not see her doing. Personally, I think Katt was disappointed based on his and Connie's eyes in the group shot done with the director on the ship. I know I can't read their minds, but their eyes are reading anything but happy to me - even though both are smiling. Also, I do think he cared enough about the show to a. agree to appear so there was at least some closure to the Ralph/Bill team - which would also avoid his character being convenantly killed off and not able to return, and b. that in '93, he tried to get a reunion movie made. Now, if it included a nod to "GAHeroine" and somehow Ralph got the suit again, that would be up to them. Still... the switchover in opinion is way too easy and simply done to not be real. I still feel it was done so Culp could continue. He did afterall suggest that the show be a heroine.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 19, 2007 17:50:21 GMT -5
I don't care either way. I think it would have been fine if the original team was there. I think it is fine and realistic the way it was done. One sided people usually don't have other options. Everyone was written realistically in the HEROINE pilot. Just because your favorite character was not written the way you want does not mean it was not realistic. Again, if Katt had cared or thought it not right, he could have said NO to do it. It has been done in the past. And the dialogue in the ship might be contrary to you, but it seems fine. Ralph suggested something the GG Council had not considered, so they changed their minds. Easy enough. As for VANITY, Ralph was there to try and work with Bill. In other episodes, Bill was there when Ralph threw it in. It makes sense that Bill tried to reason with Ralph not to get too public about the suit. It may not to you. That's fine. You can have your opinion...I never said anything against that. However, your opinion can still be one-sided. Coincidentally, more than just Mona like Bill. With respects to Mona, I do not lust after Ralph or look at Katt anymore than an actor. My respect for the actor includes that I do not have M-rated fantasies or anything of the like. I also do not always find ways to make my favorite character right all the time. I know in "GAHeroine" he screwed up - regardless of my opinion of canonity - and gave you a list of what he's done wrong in the show (as far as his acts). So... IMHO, your opinion about my one-sidedness being moreso than Mona with Bill is flawed. Okay....I didn't say Mona was not one-sided. I merely mentioned that Mona is not the only person to like Bill. You are getting off the topic and I don't see how attacking the viewpoints of other members is necessary. I did not say you could not be. You got upset when I called you one-sided. You retorted that I was being one-sided. I showed you how I was not. As for the ego trip: In the past, Pam and Bill could reason with him better because they were the ones in the know. Now others knew and it was a completely different situation. *Sigh* As I said, you are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that everyone was written realistically. I never said they didn't care about the franchise, but obviously they did not care either about the way their characters were written or they would have said no. As for the 93 comeback, that only proves that Katt was free and got to thinking about it again and how it might work. It doesn't mean that he didn't like HEROINE or the tack it took. So the switchover was too easy AND simply done to not be real? That means you see it as real. Good. No more arguing then. And if it worked so Culp could come back, more power to him. He was great as Bill Maxwell and the pilot did him justice too.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 19, 2007 19:19:07 GMT -5
Okay....I didn't say Mona was not one-sided. I merely mentioned that Mona is not the only person to like Bill. You are getting off the topic and I don't see how attacking the viewpoints of other members is necessary. The comment you said can be read both ways... connecting it with the paragraph prior to it implies it my way: Had you said... "I like Bill too," what you wanted to say would have come across to me. With the one-sidedness sentence before it, it can be read that I can be one-sided like Mona has been at times with what I said in my response. That said, I do apologize to Mona for the comments I made. While I have read you that way in the past, I do not see you as doing that now. (ETA: I have decided to walk away from this thread for the good of all. )
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 20, 2007 9:58:12 GMT -5
Okay....I didn't say Mona was not one-sided. I merely mentioned that Mona is not the only person to like Bill. You are getting off the topic and I don't see how attacking the viewpoints of other members is necessary. The comment you said can be read both ways... connecting it with the paragraph prior to it implies it my way: Had you said... "I like Bill too," what you wanted to say would have come across to me. With the one-sidedness sentence before it, it can be read that I can be one-sided like Mona has been at times with what I said in my response. That said, I do apologize to Mona for the comments I made. While I have read you that way in the past, I do not see you as doing that now. (ETA: I have decided to walk away from this thread for the good of all. ) How does "Coincidentally, more than just Mona like Bill" sound as though it is an attack on Mona or you? It was a comment. You get too touchy about things that aren't even directed at you, you know.
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 20, 2007 13:55:31 GMT -5
Wow, no wonder why my ears have been burning.... I'm flattered, HD and Mel, that I'm well known enough on the list to be brought up so much on this thread. I think both of you have pegged me well--I love Bill, I have M and X-rated thoughts of him all the time, my fan fiction is written around him. However, I do indeed write him as being flawed; he makes mistakes all the TIME in my stories. Pretty evident if you've read them! Flawed heroes are the best kind, which is why TGAH as a show was so good--both Bill and Ralph were flawed and heroic. As for arguing about Bill's portrayal in Vanity and GAHeroine, since, for me, neither of those are real, or canon, I'm simply amused to see you two go at it. Again. And again. And again. I'll sink back away now into some Bill storyline in my head...perhaps his noticing of Pam "writing in her, ON her, briefs" in the "It's only Rock and Roll" episode I watched last night...and feeling Bill-ishly justified when Dack Hampton agreed with Bill that "Elvira's" music had too many notes. Mona
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 20, 2007 13:59:16 GMT -5
I don't recall if I have read any of your fanfiction or not. Why don't you consider VANITY canon, Mona? Is it because of the way it was written or the fact that it was unaired?
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 20, 2007 14:40:45 GMT -5
Hello, HD, I hope everyone understands I am going off topic on this thread in response to HD's nice question to me. If I had the knowledge I would move this to whatever thread it is supposed to be on, so please, no yelling at me! I guess I don't consider "Vanity" canon because it is such a poorly written mishmash of incongruent ideas which Culp stuck together in a very unruly fashion. To be honest, I feel it was clearly a very egotistical offering of Culp's. I do not believe Culp wrote the story for the good of TGAH and all the characters; he was doing it solely to put out an idea of his he had been trying to get on screen for years, his screen play for "Summer Soldiers". That sort of selfishness ruins the whole show for me. For me Vanity is SO bad, it can't be real. In one 43 minute episode we have: Culp's introduction of the comic book, Ralph's powers working on Connie, the sleepers, Bill's unusual and out of character past, is he/isn't he the father of one of the son's, how he could work for change in a country while being a Fed (and his whole life previously revolved around being a Fed), the idiocy of the GG sleepers, the GG chastising Ralph and Bill (for doing, essentially GOOD, helping the people of a country maintain their democracy against regime change while having praised Bill and Ralph for preventing regime change in the US in the pilot episode), and, Bill eating pizza (tomato sauce) at the end, in a very, also, egotistical Bill oriented tag scene completely leaving out the interplay of Bill with Ralph and Pam. Everything, for me, in this episode does NOT work. I think it's probably the worst of all Culp scripts ever written. Thus, I simply have removed it from my mind as Canon. Some may agree with me and some may disagree; I've got no problem with that. We all work with the show in our own personal ways. It is, after all, a TV show, not the word of God. Mona
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 20, 2007 14:49:26 GMT -5
Hello, HD, I hope everyone understands I am going off topic on this thread in response to HD's nice question to me. If I had the knowledge I would move this to whatever thread it is supposed to be on, so please, no yelling at me! I guess I don't consider "Vanity" canon because it is such a poorly written mishmash of incongruent ideas which Culp stuck together in a very unruly fashion. To be honest, I feel it was clearly a very egotistical offering of Culp's. I do not believe Culp wrote the story for the good of TGAH and all the characters; he was doing it solely to put out an idea of his he had been trying to get on screen for years, his screen play for "Summer Soldiers". That sort of selfishness ruins the whole show for me. For me Vanity is SO bad, it can't be real. In one 43 minute episode we have: Culp's introduction of the comic book, Ralph's powers working on Connie, the sleepers, Bill's unusual and out of character past, is he/isn't he the father of one of the son's, how he could work for change in a country while being a Fed (and his whole life previously revolved around being a Fed), the idiocy of the GG sleepers, the GG chastising Ralph and Bill (for doing, essentially GOOD, helping the people of a country maintain their democracy against regime change while having praised Bill and Ralph for preventing regime change in the US in the pilot episode), and, Bill eating pizza (tomato sauce) at the end, in a very, also, egotistical Bill oriented tag scene completely leaving out the interplay of Bill with Ralph and Pam. Everything, for me, in this episode does NOT work. I think it's probably the worst of all Culp scripts ever written. Thus, I simply have removed it from my mind as Canon. Some may agree with me and some may disagree; I've got no problem with that. We all work with the show in our own personal ways. It is, after all, a TV show, not the word of God. Mona *RANTS AND RAVES AND YELLS AT MONA FOR GOING OFF TOPIC* It is on topic because we are talking HEROINE too, but I wanted to see how VANITY fit into the situation. I see what you mean by that. In that case, how is HEROINE not canon to you?
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 20, 2007 16:06:22 GMT -5
Hello, again, HD,
I see both of us must have the day off from work!
GAHeroine is not canon for me for serious problematic issues I also saw in that show. I disliked that it is not a "whole story", with proper beginning, middle and end; that set the stage of it not being a "real" story for me. I agree with Melmac that characterizations of Bill and Ralph were disasterously done and ruined the previous episodes where we saw the growth and maturing of them and their relationship. We were led to deeply respect Bill Maxwell and in one fell swoop, the GG show us they don't do so themselves. We were led to deeply respect Ralph's commitment to use the suit for good, and suddenly he is just an arrogant jackass abusing the suit. Huh? The trashing of the past in the creation of the new is unnecessary and shows an infantile creative effort that in and of itself does not deserve respect. Last, I believe the cartoonish, omnipotent, and absolutely unbelievable technological ability of the GG to "erase" the minds, the newspapers, the talk shows, etc. of Ralph and his suit from the entire planet was so laughably impossible it reduced the show to an imaginary exhibition in and of itself.
So, no, I see it as a failed attempt of continuity, but not something that for me can be seen as canon. If I see it as canon then all the love and respect and admiration I had for Bill and Ralph seems to disappear into meaningless mist, and TGAH loses its significance as a great show. I refuse to allow that to happen; ergo, GAHeroine never happened.
Mona
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 20, 2007 16:49:47 GMT -5
Okay, so they are not canon for different reasons. That is what I really wanted to see. So when someone posts about the NEW GAHeroine as this thread does...you have to go "What?" right?
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 20, 2007 17:11:17 GMT -5
Nah, I know others like it, for various reasons. I have seen it several times myself! There are a couple of things I like about it, mainly, 1) Culp is a lean mean handsome machine and 2) I like how Maxwell is presented as having his own office and essentially on his own with no annoying Carlisle to deal with. That fits in with my view of him advancing up the scale of things at the FBI due to his "kill record". Pam was presented well, too, I thought, and I appreciated that she was the one to hone in on the fact that this was the sad end of their threesome partnership (although one cannot imagine them giving up their friendships entirely after all they've been through and meant to each other). So, the non-canonical show did a few things "right" by me.
You consider it canon yourself, don't you?
Mona
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Post by jopierce on Dec 20, 2007 17:55:20 GMT -5
Oh, poll maker. There is a problem...
There is no "Other" category. There always have to be "Other" options.
I personally like none of your choices.
Anyway, I think we already talked about this in another thread. I remember voting for Whoopi Goldberg. I think she'd be great for the comic/human aspect. I don't think it should be who'd fill out the suit for purely sexual reasons.
I doubt the Green Guys would give someone a suit based on looks alone.
If they did, Bill would have had the suit from the get-go.
***
I think Vanity is canon GAH, aired or not.. I think GAHeroine is NOT canon GAH, since it is not GAH.
Just because I don't like an episode doesn't mean I ignore it. I hate Desperado. But I accept it.
GAHeroine CAN be ignored, however, because it wasn't the same series. A non-issue for me.
In defense of Vanity.
Vanity is fine as canon. There are some contradictions, and it is poorly written/executed. But it's out there and is part of the series.
For me, I just have to figure out a way to make it all make sense in my mind. I have to do the same with Lilacs, which no one will debate is canon. I think that is just as contradictory in so many ways. But we have unanswered questions that we can only answer personally in our own opinions.
Vanity isn't as contradictory as it seems at first glance. Bill is conservative, sure, but in essence he does believe in protecting people and society. Even if it means bending the rules a little. He talks about being by the book, but I don't think he ever really was. He says he was, but he says a lot of things that don't really pan out.
I like to think that Bill fighting with revolutionaries is not that odd of an idea. Why couldn't a left-wing cause be a Just Cause in his mind? There must have been a reason why he chose to help these people way back then. Maybe he recognized that they were fighting for their freedom, and that was better than having those in power exploiting them.
Maybe his interactions with some people (The Delveras, Mancho?) made it clear how bad the industrialists were treating people. Maybe a revolution was a better option than having the economic situation turn into a state of utter exploitation, colonialism, or slavery.
He probably saw that the industrialists were exploiting those people. Maybe he saw them as fighting for their own rights. Maybe that appealed to him in a way (and maybe why the GGs chose him to begin with. Why would they choose someone who didn't care about people?)
Maybe Bill chose to help these people win their freedom from neo-colonialism. Who knows how bad the situation was before. It was probably awful.
Maybe this was the "Lesser of two evils" in his mind. And maybe he thought he could influence them enough that he could bring about a revolution without communism. I prefer to think that he decided it was better to help these people win their freedom and then elect their own government rather than helping the US fund and set up military death squads to keep the order. Who knows?
Maybe he thought it was comparable to the American Revolution in some ways - of riding the place of tyranny/colonial powers, and that helped him justify working with the revolutionaries. Maybe he thought that he could convince them that they were the George Washingtons of Latin America... they did compare it to Valley Forge, right?
This actually fits well with the historical situation; he/the govt was afraid that if Americans didn't have a hand in a revolution, the Russians would. In most other cases, though, the US wasn't so good at giving people really democratic governments.
Much of it may seem contradictory, but I think that it could actually work. It has to be fleshed out, though.
So Vanity is not a problem for canon for me. The problem with the episode is that it was too crammed, and didn't flesh things out. But that doesn't mean it's not canon. It's like Lilacs - leaving you with lots of questions about motive and past history. But that's ok.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 20, 2007 18:47:30 GMT -5
Nah, I know others like it, for various reasons. I have seen it several times myself! There are a couple of things I like about it, mainly, 1) Culp is a lean mean handsome machine and 2) I like how Maxwell is presented as having his own office and essentially on his own with no annoying Carlisle to deal with. That fits in with my view of him advancing up the scale of things at the FBI due to his "kill record". Pam was presented well, too, I thought, and I appreciated that she was the one to hone in on the fact that this was the sad end of their threesome partnership (although one cannot imagine them giving up their friendships entirely after all they've been through and meant to each other). So, the non-canonical show did a few things "right" by me. You consider it canon yourself, don't you? Mona Pam is great...regardless. And I consider it canon as part of the GAH universe...but not necessarily part of GAH canon. And Josie, I agree with the VANITY vs LILACS canon argument.
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