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Post by billswoman on Aug 13, 2005 0:29:28 GMT -5
From what I've been seeing in posts about this failed pilot-made-GAH episode in the DVD, people get quite vociferous about it.
Should this be considered canon in the GAH universe? Does Ralph's identity really get revealed and he's forced to give up the suit a couple/few years after S3 ends?
What do you think?
I personally think it should be canon, although it doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Post by The J-Man on Aug 13, 2005 1:31:13 GMT -5
I personally think it should be canon, although it doesn't mean I have to like it. That's what I've been trying to tell these knuckle-heads for years. You can't just declare something non-canon because you didn't like it.
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Post by MelMac on Aug 25, 2005 22:42:36 GMT -5
Like the story or not, it is canon. As I've said in another post, how it is used in GAH as far as the future or fanfics is left to the imagination. One could either ignore it, use it in a continuation with Bill and Ralph (i.e. bad dream) or (though not my choice) could continue it with Holly in the suit.
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Post by billswoman on Aug 25, 2005 22:49:19 GMT -5
Well, I could pretend I just didn't know about it, if I write any fanfics a few years into their future timeline from the network broadcasts. Heck, i'd never heard of GAHeroine till I came to this board.
I personally think it SHOULD be canonical, so if I do write any stories set when, 1986? 1987? I'll just have to watch it first.
All of the stories I'm planning are throughout seasons 1 thru 3, maybe a bit right after 3. I've got, let's see... four in mind so far, not counting "Lilacs II." I'm using the imaginative titles of Lilacs III and IV, lol, for lack of better names... sorry, that's a different post.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Sept 14, 2005 21:41:43 GMT -5
I agree...it should be canon, but that doesn't mean we have to watch it.
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Post by billswoman on Nov 12, 2005 7:50:24 GMT -5
I don't know if I actually mentioned this point about canon or not on the board, but I discussed it with my fellow Trekker. It's a common discussion among us, what's canon and what's not canon?
My OTHER fellow Trekker (these two know as much as I do about the show) uses this argument: If it wasn't actually shown ON FILM, it's not canon. His example: Peter Preston in Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan. We all KNOW he's supposed to be Scotty's nephew, from what we've read pre-release and all, but when it was finally released, there's no actual mention that he is his nephew (although Scotty's freaking out over the kid's death should've been a clue). My buddy Paul said, Nope, they never actually SAID it, so he's not his nephew.
Now, before the release of the DVDs, was GAHeroine ever actually shown to the public? If so, then yes, it's definitely canon. If not, then there's that gray line that if you want to, you can claim, Oh, it may've been done by SJC with the original cast, but if they didn't air it, it's not canon. Heck, lots of pilots are made that don't make it to broadcast, those aren't considered "real" in any fandom's universe, are they?
The question my other Trekker friend and I had was: Okay, but it IS on DVD now, does that count as being "aired?" As I've noticed, from my limited DVD experience, shows are coming out with unaired episodes on DVD (I know "Firefly" and "GAH" both did). Star Trek's got at least one script of an episode that never made it to production and broadcast.
I personally felt, even before seeing GAHeroine, that it should be canon. I especially think so now, since I enjoyed the "episode" a lot. There's still that 3 year gap from the last ep of GAH to GAHeroine to write stories on, if a fanfic writer doesn't want to bring Holly into the picture. I think stories with Bill and Holly partnered up would be fun too, but I've already mentioned all that elsewhere.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Nov 15, 2005 19:50:37 GMT -5
I think it should be canon...as for TREK it seems like there is so much out there...who knows where it starts and stops? The debate over canon seems more relevant there.
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Post by enovak on Nov 19, 2005 6:51:00 GMT -5
Well the TREK issue and ST2 is iffy. When it was shown on TV, those scenes were put back in. So it was shown to the public. I forget if they are in the new DVD version or not. Heroine WAS shown on TV, so it should count.
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Post by billswoman on Nov 19, 2005 7:53:50 GMT -5
Oh, if it was shown on TV, it's definitely canon. I was considering it such any way, I was just playing Devil's Advocate, for those who don't WANT to consider it canon.
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Post by jasonrobertyates on Nov 19, 2005 11:16:09 GMT -5
We all KNOW he's supposed to be Scotty's nephew, from what we've read pre-release and all, but when it was finally released, there's no actual mention that he is his nephew (although Scotty's freaking out over the kid's death should've been a clue). My buddy Paul said, Nope, they never actually SAID it, so he's not his nephew. Then Scotty's freaking out would have been a little much for just a cadet. Since Scotty at that point would have been exposed to so much death (think of the all the red shirt wearing guys who got it on away missions on the original series ;D) I just got done watching ST 3 dvd right now. hehehe
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Post by Videofox on Nov 21, 2005 23:47:55 GMT -5
I'm going to get lined up and shot for this, but I voted no.
I wouldn't have anything against a sequel series with a female lead. My reasons for voting against are practical:
"Heroine" was a failed pilot, which means the idea didn't sell and no actual series was made. Nice try, but it didn't go anywhere. Dozens of pilots are made each year but only a handful are given the green light. Packaging the footage with GAH's opening credits was a business decision for the syndication deal; it was never intended to be part of the original series.
And think about it: the "Heroine" pilot was included as an extra on Season One's first disc. If it was meant to be canon by SJC and the studio, wouldn't it have been added to the very end of Season 3 with the unaired episodes? ;D
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Post by billswoman on Nov 22, 2005 5:22:48 GMT -5
You bring up some excellent points too, videofox; not putting you up against a wall at all on that! I was thinking that too, about being a failed pilot, as you said.
That's one of the things I actually didn't like about the version on the DVD, how it used the original show's theme and all.
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Post by MrsMaxwell on Nov 22, 2005 10:41:32 GMT -5
I also did'nt care for the N-B-C chime during the intro when the I-N-E was added to the end of HERO in the opening credits. How cheesy!
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Post by MelMac on Nov 22, 2005 21:19:37 GMT -5
I also did'nt care for the N-B-C chime during the intro when the I-N-E was added to the end of HERO in the opening credits. How cheesy! I know, and given my profession, every time I hear the chimes, I keep thinking it's some major disaster I need to be aware of before I go to work and help put it together on the page.
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Post by MrsMaxwell on Nov 22, 2005 21:50:37 GMT -5
Everytime I hear it, I get a vision of Johhny Carson or Willard Scott. Hmmmm.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Nov 30, 2005 17:22:10 GMT -5
I agree that they should have left well enough alone. I am sure that people would have realized already that they were on NBC and not another network. That definitely worked against it in my opinion...I mute that all the time.
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Post by believeitornot on Sept 12, 2007 22:23:35 GMT -5
I also did'nt care for the N-B-C chime during the intro when the I-N-E was added to the end of HERO in the opening credits. How cheesy! Just to let the audience know they weren't in Kansas, er, ABC-land, anymore.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Sept 12, 2007 22:32:36 GMT -5
Nice one. I still say it is canon. If we are going with failed premises, the last four episodes failed to be on the original run, so they should not count either. When HEROINE was filmed and rejected to be aired, they lumped it in with GAH. To me, that means SJC saw it as canon and a natural progression of the show.
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Post by MelMac on Sept 13, 2007 9:39:47 GMT -5
Nice one. I still say it is canon. If we are going with failed premises, the last four episodes failed to be on the original run, so they should not count either. When HEROINE was filmed and rejected to be aired, they lumped it in with GAH. To me, that means SJC saw it as canon and a natural progression of the show. Given that SJC also cut out the original music, he could've put in "Heroine" as a way to placate the viewers with a bonus episode. It's also not in the third season, which is the natural progression of the series. Even though I know season one had 8 eps, still... if he really considered it canon, it would go third season. The other eps do count as canon because they would've been shown had ABC not cancelled the series. "GAHeroine" was a pilot to try and sell and it didn't. It probably wouldn't have shown on air unless they expanded on it to give a reason why Ralph lost the suit due to ego and as to why Bill goes from the greenguys saying "Do you think he should remember too" to becoming Holly's partner. That too made no sense to me, especially since they were so willing to strip Ralph of the suit too because of Bill's mistakes in "Vanity." Same cause and reason here, just roles reversed. Also, IMHO, they probably would've recast Holly as well when they expanded on the idea, a la Face in the "A-Team" pilot.
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Post by mmderdekea on Sept 13, 2007 10:12:18 GMT -5
My vote is a solid "No". GAHeroine is by no means canon.
I consider GAHeroine along the lines of unproduced scripts like "Long Fall"; it was just an idea and never really played out fully to ensure canonicity. GAHeroine was simply a partially filmed story, just random scenes, not aired to the public, considered a failed pilot; all that means to me it completely invalidates its rank as canon.
Mona
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