|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 7, 2006 15:12:25 GMT -5
A great episode and one that I have always remembered from syndication runs and the like. It and DESPERADO were aired a lot when I was younger. Some things don't make sense to me though. I am amazed for one that the greenguys would cause a helicopter to crash...it only said that Jordan Heath was apprehended...does that mean the other guys died? And what about Pam? If the boys go up in the ship when they "croak" as Bill puts it, would Pam go too? She was part of the team...as recognized in DIVORCE, VENUSIAN STYLE. And why didn't Dr. Springfield tell Jordan that there might be trouble because JJ Beck was still alive? After all, Marshall said that he helped them fake the death, so he should have known and told Jordan that...just to ensure that he might be needed alive. (Speaking of that, would Jordan have killed him without the will do you think?). That tidbit has always bothered me. I like the part with Bill's old collars, but it seemed a little forced...like SJC needed a way to have Bill and Ralph coming back into town when Springfield died. Overall, great episode and SJC writes some doozies. I just had those concerns and questions. One final note: What happened with Tony and his math grades? I hate loose ends.
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 14, 2006 15:14:45 GMT -5
Was this episode supposed to be aired as the season opener? According to IMDB, it was released in October and was ahead of both 200 MPH FASTBALL and OPERATION: SPOILSPORT, which both have November dates. Is IMDB wrong? If so, why was it never fixed on the site?
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 14, 2006 15:52:07 GMT -5
How long did JJ Beck have the suit? He mentions 1935 at one point...which gives us a starting reference. Then, he says that the greenguys took his suit away twenty years ago...which would have made it roughly 1961. Why let him wreak personal gain so long, but made Ralph give it up cold turkey? Trying to avoid a similar mistake you think?
|
|
|
Post by Videofox on Jul 14, 2006 16:30:25 GMT -5
I like to think that the greenguys have heroes on the other "garden planets" that they are trying to preserve, and it takes a long time to make rounds checking up on everybody. They probably didn't come back around to Earth until 1960, then realized what J.J had been up to. That's why they now pop up on Ralph ever so often--to keep him honest.
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 14, 2006 16:33:45 GMT -5
Yes, but they have to keep pretty good tabs on things...look at OPERATION:SPOILSPORT. That had a twenty-four hour time limit on it and they were there in no time flat. In DIVORCE, they were at their home planet and back to Earth in a matter of minutes. Somehow I don't think that would be an issue. I wonder if maybe they didn't see it as a huge issue at first.
|
|
|
Post by Videofox on Jul 14, 2006 23:42:53 GMT -5
Yeah, they trusted JJ. Thought the Earth was in good hands and realized too late that it was a mistake.
J.J. was no doubt the perfect choice--at the time. Probably did some very heroic and noble things, while pulling a few "harmless" personal-gain stunts off and on for a while, like Ralph and Bill with the gold mine. Then it got easier..and easier...and easier. J.J. probably even forgot all about the greenguys until they showed up decades later and gave him a stern talking to, before ripping the cape from his back.
Best part was J.J. bursting into laughter when Ralph told them they lost the instruction book.
Makes me wonder how long the greenguys have been hanging around Earth and how many heroes they made even before J.J. Maybe some of the classic heroes from ancient legends that were "gifted" with superhuman powers were actually predecessors of Ralph and J.J, with different sources of power...say, "magic" amulets or other weapons, before the power was contained in a suit.
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 16, 2006 10:07:43 GMT -5
Well JJ did wonder if Lord Ashton had had a suit.
|
|
|
Post by MelMac on Jul 16, 2006 21:50:28 GMT -5
Yes, but they have to keep pretty good tabs on things...look at OPERATION:SPOILSPORT. That had a twenty-four hour time limit on it and they were there in no time flat. In DIVORCE, they were at their home planet and back to Earth in a matter of minutes. Somehow I don't think that would be an issue. I wonder if maybe they didn't see it as a huge issue at first. Yeah, I wondered that too, and then when the one guy committed suicide, they realized that one man's death was caused by bad things done to him through the suit's use and took it away from Beck (they never do say when it was.) This episode's fun to me too because of the way Las Vegas looked then and how it does now. It's sad because I thin the original Aladin casino is now destroyed along with a couple of other signs you see for hotels in the episode. Scary thing about Bill's jacket is that it's actually instyle now. Saw a similar patchwork one at Brooks Brothers about a month or so ago. I do have some minor quibbles about it, such as there's no after the fact bit with Tony and Ralph after their face-off about Tony's education. It just goes to the bit about Beck's will and the classic cars. Another question: We're they maced or gassed? I mean, both Ralph and Bill get sprayed in the eyes with whatever it was they were hit with. Though I've made comments to the contrary, upon rethinking, mace, from what I've seen, will also send you flat on your knees from the pain, so will pepper spray. (I've accidentally rubbed my eyes after touching the seeds and membrane of a jalepeno, and had to rinse my eyes out quickly, as it was that intense.) The thug also has no problems cuffing Ralph from a distance and Ralph still standing, so that also confuses me (You can't really do that if someone was unconscious. Both men's reactions don't match the comment the one thug goes about "Never gassing an agent before." Then there was the funnier bits with Ralph being hooded in one shot, then the next just the duct tape gag. He obviously couldn't do it himself being handcuffed, so it's pretty funny.
|
|
|
Post by Ms Boku on Jul 16, 2006 22:24:56 GMT -5
Yes, but they have to keep pretty good tabs on things...look at OPERATION:SPOILSPORT. That had a twenty-four hour time limit on it and they were there in no time flat. In DIVORCE, they were at their home planet and back to Earth in a matter of minutes. Somehow I don't think that would be an issue. I wonder if maybe they didn't see it as a huge issue at first. Yeah, I wondered that too, and then when the one guy committed suicide, they realized that one man's death was caused by bad things done to him through the suit's use and took it away from Beck (they never do say when it was.) This episode's fun to me too because of the way Las Vegas looked then and how it does now. It's sad because I thin the original Aladin casino is now destroyed along with a couple of other signs you see for hotels in the episode. Scary thing about Bill's jacket is that it's actually instyle now. Saw a similar patchwork one at Brooks Brothers about a month or so ago. I do have some minor quibbles about it, such as there's no after the fact bit with Tony and Ralph after their face-off about Tony's education. It just goes to the bit about Beck's will and the classic cars. Another question: We're they maced or gassed? I mean, both Ralph and Bill get sprayed in the eyes with whatever it was they were hit with. Though I've made comments to the contrary, upon rethinking, mace, from what I've seen, will also send you flat on your knees from the pain, so will pepper spray. (I've accidentally rubbed my eyes after touching the seeds and membrane of a jalepeno, and had to rinse my eyes out quickly, as it was that intense.) The thug also has no problems cuffing Ralph from a distance and Ralph still standing, so that also confuses me (You can't really do that if someone was unconscious. Both men's reactions don't match the comment the one thug goes about "Never gassing an agent before." Then there was the funnier bits with Ralph being hooded in one shot, then the next just the duct tape gag. He obviously couldn't do it himself being handcuffed, so it's pretty funny. Yeah I thought the same things when I saw it too. The wonder of inconsistancies.
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 16, 2006 22:28:55 GMT -5
Yeah, they trusted JJ. Thought the Earth was in good hands and realized too late that it was a mistake. J.J. was no doubt the perfect choice--at the time. Probably did some very heroic and noble things, while pulling a few "harmless" personal-gain stunts off and on for a while, like Ralph and Bill with the gold mine. Then it got easier..and easier...and easier. J.J. probably even forgot all about the greenguys until they showed up decades later and gave him a stern talking to, before ripping the cape from his back. Best part was J.J. bursting into laughter when Ralph told them they lost the instruction book. Makes me wonder how long the greenguys have been hanging around Earth and how many heroes they made even before J.J. Maybe some of the classic heroes from ancient legends that were "gifted" with superhuman powers were actually predecessors of Ralph and J.J, with different sources of power...say, "magic" amulets or other weapons, before the power was contained in a suit. Why didn't they trust Ralph and Bill that much? They came back in the third season twice to see if the suit needed to be taken back...even though they had been doing the job. Marshall left JJ Beck and the greenguys didn't come back. What made Beck so special?
|
|
|
Post by MelMac on Jul 16, 2006 22:44:12 GMT -5
Yeah, they trusted JJ. Thought the Earth was in good hands and realized too late that it was a mistake. J.J. was no doubt the perfect choice--at the time. Probably did some very heroic and noble things, while pulling a few "harmless" personal-gain stunts off and on for a while, like Ralph and Bill with the gold mine. Then it got easier..and easier...and easier. J.J. probably even forgot all about the greenguys until they showed up decades later and gave him a stern talking to, before ripping the cape from his back. Best part was J.J. bursting into laughter when Ralph told them they lost the instruction book. Makes me wonder how long the greenguys have been hanging around Earth and how many heroes they made even before J.J. Maybe some of the classic heroes from ancient legends that were "gifted" with superhuman powers were actually predecessors of Ralph and J.J, with different sources of power...say, "magic" amulets or other weapons, before the power was contained in a suit. Why didn't they trust Ralph and Bill that much? They came back in the third season twice to see if the suit needed to be taken back...even though they had been doing the job. Marshall left JJ Beck and the greenguys didn't come back. What made Beck so special? Not quite, as "Divorce," they get lectured on how to be a team or it'll hurt Earth in the long run. "Vanity" is the only one the green guy threatens taking away the suit. "GAHeroine" is when they do (though some will argue it anyway. ) Beck, I don't know how he avoided it for longer than Ralph did, going by GAHeroine philosophy. I originally thought that he found a way to use the suit to hide his secret earnings, but that didn't work, so I wondered if he had a cooked book that he'd look at more often than the real one to have the appearance of doing good. He also might've given token donations to charities, which the greenguys would obviously see as a good thing. Once the man's death happened, they realized something was really wrong so they headed back and upon seeing something else in addition, such as Beck with two books, stripped him of the suit.
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 17, 2006 13:18:33 GMT -5
Why didn't they trust Ralph and Bill that much? They came back in the third season twice to see if the suit needed to be taken back...even though they had been doing the job. Marshall left JJ Beck and the greenguys didn't come back. What made Beck so special? Not quite, as "Divorce," they get lectured on how to be a team or it'll hurt Earth in the long run. "Vanity" is the only one the green guy threatens taking away the suit. "GAHeroine" is when they do (though some will argue it anyway. ) Beck, I don't know how he avoided it for longer than Ralph did, going by GAHeroine philosophy. I originally thought that he found a way to use the suit to hide his secret earnings, but that didn't work, so I wondered if he had a cooked book that he'd look at more often than the real one to have the appearance of doing good. He also might've given token donations to charities, which the greenguys would obviously see as a good thing. Once the man's death happened, they realized something was really wrong so they headed back and upon seeing something else in addition, such as Beck with two books, stripped him of the suit. Actually in DIVORCE, the greenguys said they needed to work together, but asked if the suit should go to someone else too. It was just not as major in the long run as it was later in VANITY. You hear Bill and JJ mention that he never gave anything to charity and that he was as crooked as a dog's hind leg. That is why he was giving all his legacy and such to charity. I think it is poorly unexplained why JJ got the suit longer than Ralph. Ralph and Bill didn't even get to keep the gold mine they found after all...and they got lectured a lot more than it sounds like JJ ever did.
|
|
|
Post by Videofox on Jul 17, 2006 16:33:09 GMT -5
Maybe this all confirms my original train of thought (pun intended)... that after leaving J.J. unsupervised so long turned out to be a disaster, the greenguys decided to hang around Earth more often to keep a closer eye on Ralph and Bill. Since Ralph didn't have the book, they weren't performing up to the greenguys' expectations, leading to the tour of their homeworld and the lecture about about trying harder and being better...and at the end of the series, perhaps they merely threatened to take the suit away in order to motivate them (not considering the possibility of Ralph losing the second book so soon). All of this is just to prevent another J.J. Beck from happening.
Yes, I know that DID happen in "Heroine," but since that series concept failed to fly, I don't consider it canon. ::ducks for cover::
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 17, 2006 16:55:04 GMT -5
Oh...so you're one of THEM are you? I see HEROINE as canon, but I have discussed that elsewhere as to why I think that. That is not a bad idea considering the fact that maybe they had never had a reason to question a suit-wearer before. Does that mean that no one EVER used it poorly in the past? I find that hard to believe...unless JJ was the first suit wearer, which is possible I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by Maxwell - F.B.I. on Jul 17, 2006 16:56:23 GMT -5
They should have let Connie wear the suit. Oh, the humanity...
|
|
|
Post by MelMac on Jul 17, 2006 19:19:29 GMT -5
Maybe this all confirms my original train of thought (pun intended)... that after leaving J.J. unsupervised so long turned out to be a disaster, the greenguys decided to hang around Earth more often to keep a closer eye on Ralph and Bill. Since Ralph didn't have the book, they weren't performing up to the greenguys' expectations, leading to the tour of their homeworld and the lecture about about trying harder and being better...and at the end of the series, perhaps they merely threatened to take the suit away in order to motivate them (not considering the possibility of Ralph losing the second book so soon). All of this is just to prevent another J.J. Beck from happening. Yes, I know that DID happen in "Heroine," but since that series concept failed to fly, I don't consider it canon. ::ducks for cover::Don't worry, there's people in both groups. I'm actually in both, as weird as that sounds (and I'm sure HD will quip about it too. ) I do see it as canon as far fanfiction as it has the characters and it was filmed, however, I've seen it more as a dream Bill has based on how the episode was filmed, how the characters were portrayed (original trio, yes even Bill,) and that it never was shown until it ran in syndication. (Why I say fanfiction: It's up to the powers that be if it's canon or not should there ever be a movie/TV reunion movie made for it. And, I have a series of stories that have Heroine as a premonition to the new wearer. I do see the actual episode, no matter how poor it is (very) it as canon. ) As far as Beck, you're right, I forgot about Bill's comment. Maybe the cooked books had the numbers of what he supposedly "donated" in case the greenguys were watching and just kept a regular book that auditors read (OK... maybe I"m pushing it there. )
|
|
|
Post by HoudiniDerek on Jul 17, 2006 19:24:04 GMT -5
So you think Bill records his notes about Ralph in his dreams, huh? Too many things make it really happening. That is why it should be seen as canon, especially since it WAS in syndication AND it is on the DVDs. As I told MelMac, if you don't think it is canon, then the last four episodes of Season 3, which never aired during the original run, should not be canon either. Anyway, there is a HEROINE thread for this.
|
|
|
Post by MelMac on Jul 17, 2006 19:39:45 GMT -5
So you think Bill records his notes about Ralph in his dreams, huh? Too many things make it really happening. That is why it should be seen as canon, especially since it WAS in syndication AND it is on the DVDs. As I told MelMac, if you don't think it is canon, then the last four episodes of Season 3, which never aired during the original run, should not be canon either. Anyway, there is a HEROINE thread for this. Yes... fair's fair on it too (and I've already debated it and how it relates to my series. ), hence my comments here too. Now... back to "DMWJ," I also thought it was a little funny that the casino doesn't have security searching around for a potential culprit when all the jackpot machines go off as winners. Several specials on casinos say that it's near impossible. Also, during the fight in the desert, I love how Ralph's inadvertently hampering Bill instead of helping him. Takes the third try before he flips the bad guy away with the power. Then... man I love the bit where Ralph stands as a car ramp of sorts and causes the car to flip on its back. Madalone (or the stuntman) should've won some sort of award for that as I've never seen it done elsewhere (too bad the stuntdouble award show wasn't around then... Madalone'd won hands down for a lot of his stunts on "GAH." Maybe a lifetime achievement award for Madalone sometime in the near future? )
|
|
|
Post by Videofox on Jul 17, 2006 20:05:32 GMT -5
And to reiterate what I stated in that other thread, why was Heroine added as an EXTRA to the season one disc, instead of at the end of season three? See...even the studio wanted to leave it open as to whether it "really" happened. ;D Also, I personally don't like the idea of yet another hero pulling a JJ Beck and having the suit taken away from him in shame. Kinda makes humanity in general look bad. I would prefer Ralph to be a better person than that, retiring the suit of his own free will after twenty years of busting bad guys with Bill and getting words of praise from the greenguys for his excellent service. And then, right after Ralph retires, the world starts going to hell in a handbasket again, forcing the greenguys to choose a new hero...hence a new series. The show would probably begin the same way the classic series did: potential hero and government agent are paired up and approached by a UFO that gives them the suit and just a cryptic hint of the apocalypse at hand. At no point would Ralph or Bill be mentioned until later in the show when a good plot point demands it, just like Ralph and Bill did not know about Beck until later. The new show would still be comedic as far as character interaction is concerned, but the plots would be harder-hitting, more socially relevant, and probably a little darker. Story arcs would probably involve a "Area 51" type goverment agency that has had enough hints about a magic suit that gives people super powers. They would still have some of Matthew Powers' notes, and probably the original instruction book someone found in the desert and sold on eBay in the last couple of years, and they have begun to decipher some of the alien language and know of the existence of some kind of weapon here on Earth, but know not what it is or who has it. They would be experimenting with super soldiers, cyborgs, or battle armor in hopes of capturing whatever this weapon is. Another arc would involve the hero's reactions to having the suit. He would have his moments of temptation, he starts sliding to the "dark side" only to get pulled back by his friends. He may even undergo "suit addiction," paranoid to the point of never taking it off for fear of getting hurt. All these are tests of character that were only hinted at or never explored in Ralph, but would make for relevant contemporary drama that are expected of these shows nowadays. I would love to see a flashback of J.J. Beck in a "Golden Age" suit (I am working on my own interpretation in my custom Mego figure line), going through these same kinds of temptations and seeing how he justified it in his own mind. The Beck that Bill Maxwell described was just the rich JJ Beck that he had heard about from the last twenty years...not the hero he had to have been in the beginning. That's a thought...how about a Hero prequel??? Follow in the trend that begun with Star Wars Episode I and Smallville and show a young JJ Beck? Nah...that show would have to be wayyyy too dark and wayyy to serious for fans to accept. But a new show could explore what it might have been like for Beck in the form of a new contemporary hero, going through the same experiences. I know that's not what you guys would want to see, especially since none of the original cast would be involved...but I feel that is exactly the type of show Hollywood would want to make next. That's the way it's done these days. To make a new Hero in the same style as the original, the only hope of seeing it would be on The Disney Channel, which would then make it WAY too campy. But as long as the new show pays homage to the old, having fresh new original character personalities, hilarious tryouts with the suit, and still bumble through and get the job done, it can still be a fun show even with deeper and darker undertones. Anyone watch "Angel," with the episode in which he gets turned into a puppet? The most hilarious episode ever, and "Angel" is not even a comedy show. The new Hero wouldn't be anywhere near that dark, but you get the idea. I would love to see the original Ralph, Bill, and Pam back myself, but I'm preparing for The Powers That Be to make the kind of show I described above...and it can still be good as long as they stick to the concept of a regular human in a world just like ours where superheroes only exist in comic books suddenly gets those powers, and how he would realistically react to them. That's what made the original show so different from anything else on TV.
|
|
|
Post by jopierce on Aug 10, 2006 12:43:04 GMT -5
OK, another technical inconsistency.
It is mentioned in this episode that Maxwell had a 30 year career. Everywhere else it's 20. If 30, he would have been in the FBI while in Korea...
A ha! Yet another reason not to trust the "canon" of "canon"!
It's all my world, you just live in it...
|
|