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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 28, 2006 12:40:24 GMT -5
Hello, all,
A couple of things I really like about this show are how much in eight months time, this tough by the book Fed had taken to his 25 cents beach bum friend. The importance of Ralph's friendship to Bill, after they've known each other just 8 months, is really special in this episode. Bill's true dismay that Ralph remembers his garbage man but not "his best friend" (note: not even just "friend", but "best friend") is really touching. That's why Ralph being such a jackass in general is so painful to watch--Bill keeps mentioning their friendship and Ralph keeps being a asinine jerk. What everyone has mentioned earlier--about Bill being vindicated to draw his revolver (only time we see him with a revolver, I believe) after being heckled endlessly by Tony and then Tony's switchblade coming out--is true and Ralph saw the whole scenario unfold. In fact, Ralph apologizes a couple of times to an unresponsive Bill (so worried about his partner) in the diner for what happened. Anyway, the dichotomy eight months later in this episode between hurt Bill and angry Ralph is striking.
I think it was interesting to see the differences in generations and sexes in regards to being able to accept Ralph's amnesia has a mental/emotional component to it. Men from Bill's generation simply weren't raised to accept that emotional breakdowns were allowed--it wasn't allowed during wars, and certainly not in a job like the FBI. The fact that Bill experienced emotional states at times himself was true--but notice that in Best Desk Scenario how horrified he was when Ralph shared with Pam that Bill was having a mid-life crisis. "We do NOT talk about this with the counselor!" (We do NOT let women know men struggle emotionally; that is NOT done.) So, Lupo's writing that Bill would have difficulty openly acknowledging Ralph's emotional amnesia makes sense. What's ironic is that one of the main reasons Bill resists the idea is that Bill is so emotionally hurt that apparently meeting HIM (and the aliens) was so traumatic to Ralph, as Ralph's friendship is now so important to him.
Pam right away, a more modern woman, accepted the doctor's pronouncement of Ralph's emotional memory loss with no problems at all. Both Bill and Pam's reactions made complete sense for their characters. That was well done by Lupo.
Of course, Bill was in Ralph's face at times, righteously, true, regarding the toxic waste filled train, which could be disconcerting to an amnesiac, and I was happy that Pam finally jumped in to help Bill out in explaining the magic jammies.
Mona
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2006 12:44:49 GMT -5
Something else I like about the episode. Ralph reluctantly puts the suit on and gets to relearn everything. Sure, he asks three steps again in the story after he flies with it on, but it also could be to double check because he could've thought he took four. And, he could've still been a little confused from the accident so he just did it because he forgot.
What I don't like is that he puts Pam in front of him when Bill's going to shoot at Ralph. I like the idea... to protect Pam, but it should've been grab Pam and dive for cover. It'd been a little funnier to have dragged her behind the car with him and then peek around the side (just eyes showing) and saying Kick the Gun away. Pam, knowing better stands up and says "Kick the gun away Bill," with Ralph protesting her standing up in harm's way. Would've made a funny spat between the two.
And, when Ralph gets the holograph and they run off, just his joyful "I see it... did you see it Pam" was too funny. Even if it was an accident, when Pam says "uh huh... no I didn't" blended in very well, as though Pam was excited too that Ralph was at least improving and realizes "hey, I've never seen a holograph, better gently remind him."
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2006 12:58:32 GMT -5
Hello, all, A couple of things I really like about this show are how much in eight months time, this tough by the book Fed had taken to his 25 cents beach bum friend. The importance of Ralph's friendship to Bill, after they've known each other just 8 months, is really special in this episode. Bill's true dismay that Ralph remembers his garbage man but not "his best friend" (note: not even just "friend", but "best friend") is really touching. That's why Ralph being such a jackass in general is so painful to watch--Bill keeps mentioning their friendship and Ralph keeps being a asinine jerk. What everyone has mentioned earlier--about Bill being vindicated to draw his revolver (only time we see him with a revolver, I believe) after being heckled endlessly by Tony and then Tony's switchblade coming out--is true and Ralph saw the whole scenario unfold. In fact, Ralph apologizes a couple of times to an unresponsive Bill (so worried about his partner) in the diner for what happened. Anyway, the dichotomy eight months later in this episode between hurt Bill and angry Ralph is striking. I think it was interesting to see the differences in generations and sexes in regards to being able to accept Ralph's amnesia has a mental/emotional component to it. Men from Bill's generation simply weren't raised to accept that emotional breakdowns were allowed--it wasn't allowed during wars, and certainly not in a job like the FBI. The fact that Bill experienced emotional states at times himself was true--but notice that in Best Desk Scenario how horrified he was when Ralph shared with Pam that Bill was having a mid-life crisis. "We do NOT talk about this with the counselor!" (We do NOT let women know men struggle emotionally; that is NOT done.) So, Lupo's writing that Bill would have difficulty openly acknowledging Ralph's emotional amnesia makes sense. What's ironic is that one of the main reasons Bill resists the idea is that Bill is so emotionally hurt that apparently meeting HIM (and the aliens) was so traumatic to Ralph, as Ralph's friendship is now so important to him. Pam right away, a more modern woman, accepted the doctor's pronouncement of Ralph's emotional memory loss with no problems at all. Both Bill and Pam's reactions made complete sense for their characters. That was well done by Lupo. Of course, Bill was in Ralph's face at times, righteously, true, regarding the toxic waste filled train, which could be disconcerting to an amnesiac, and I was happy that Pam finally jumped in to help Bill out in explaining the magic jammies. Mona As far as Ralph being a jerk and the whole gun bit... I still think Ralph just was having a problem facing the truth, and the concussion's part of it. Seeing the ship was traumatic and people do try to forget those things that harm them. When they have to face them, sometimes they get defensive. I've never been knocked unconscious (as in concussed), but I do have times in my past that I try to forget and when I get reminded of them, I get defensive. One particular case is being bullied when I was in junior high. When someone taunts me a little too far, I get very upset and defensive. This even happens when part of the memory includes a good and trusted friend or teacher in the mix. Sure Bill could be upset about the apparent loss of friendship, but the doctor said to take it easy. Pushing it could've caused more harm than good, even if Ralph at the moment was upset at him. In all honesty, I don't think Ralph was trying to forget him, just that subconsciously he didn't want to remember the suit or the ship. Afterall, it was partially the reason he lost Kevin, it's wreaking havoc on his and Pam's relationship, and he's been injured a few times prior to this (which at the time was one of the worst) because of it. (BTW, I've always seen the showdown between Bill and Tony a draw. Both drew at the same time. Bill fans will insist it was Tony and Tony the reverse, but regardless, both were wrong to try and settle something like heckling with weapons).
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 28, 2006 13:35:52 GMT -5
Mona, I agree that Ralph was being a jackass, but not only towards Bill. As I posted previously, this whole episode seemed to revolve around Ralph having to remember Bill and the suit. I would be somewhat put off to if I was told I had amnesia and this guy came storming in and ordered me around.
Of course, I stand by my earlier statement that Ralph should have asked about Kevin and everything...and maybe he did in the drive back, but that is something we should know about too. His whole life was not Bill and the episode portrayed it that way. Also, as I stated before, the diner scene obviously did not upset Ralph too much until AFTER Bill almost ran him down in the desert. And so he threw the gun, then, which was smart.
I have seen this episode a lot, and while a good dynamic, is not a great one because the portrayal is not realistic enough.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2006 17:42:40 GMT -5
Given the fact that Tony stopped when he saw the gun, which would've gotten him first, I don't think Ralph was as upset and decided to try and make peace so Tony didn't end up arrested instead (which would hurt him job wise). The car... yeah, I'd be like Ralph and throw the gun away to keep it out of the guy who tried to run me over's hands. Bill also appeared drunk/drugged (definitely not well) when he drove, so removing the gun was also safe for his sake as well as Ralph's.
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Post by billswoman on Dec 28, 2006 22:17:07 GMT -5
Mel said "What I don't like is that he puts Pam in front of him when Bill's going to shoot at Ralph."
I just watched this recently, and thought it odd that he'd drag Pam down like that... but keep her in front of him.
As for the big showdown at the diner in the Pilot, notice Bill puts his hand casually into his jacket when it all begins. All he knows, from appearance at least, is Tony's some punk messing about to mess with him (or try to at least). Being in L.A. for quite some time, I'm sure Bill's met his share of street punks, and he was just being ready for it. And then, much to Tony's surprise, as fast as his switchblade's out (granted, Bill's comment about bringing the cages when taking the monkeys out was pretty provocative...) Bill's gun is out just as fast, as if saying, Okay, that far, no further.
Would Tony have actually cut Bill? Would Bill really have shot Tony?
I think the answer is "No" to both of these.
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Post by jopierce on Dec 28, 2006 22:26:00 GMT -5
Would Tony have actually cut Bill? Would Bill really have shot Tony? Even if he didn't have a gun, he would not have cut Bill... that wasn't the point. It was to intimidate some old guy sitting at a diner, dressed like Eliot Ness... Tony's probably thinking he's some insurance salesman or something... then he turns out to be a tough guy who's packing.
I think Tony read Bill wrong, but Bill read Tony right (at least that he was going to pull a knife...) In the end, Bill adores Tony... not just likes him. I think he ADORES him in a wierd way. He'll never say it, but I think he does. Plus, he sees so much of himself in him. (I agree with an earlier comment Billswoman made; Bill was probably a cut up at some point. I could see him being "Wild Bill.")
So, riding the tangent express again, Bill adores Tony. He'll never say it, but that's what I think.
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Post by billswoman on Dec 28, 2006 22:40:22 GMT -5
Still on that TE, I think the fanfic stories that have Tony as Bill's new junior partner is quite feasible (sorry I don't remember the author or authors who've done this). Look at the young Maxwell with the older partner Harlan. Bill admits that he was a "punk kid" when Harlan became his first partner. And Bill consider Tony a punk kid as well (I didn't think I'd posted this... but I was thinking it recently, catching up on GAH). So maybe Bill will do for Tony as Harlan did for him all those years ago, and teach him to fly right. Although being in Korea and a Sergeant under Captain Winslow was a good start too, I'm sure.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2006 22:44:53 GMT -5
Still... it was risky regardless. Someone could've screamed, Bill inadvertently move the gun to a student, and Bill or Tony react and punch Bill... causing a fight. Could something have happened even with this? Maybe. Would've... probably not as we saw.
Regardless, the mind too will play tricks on you even healthy, letting you be mistaken about something. Given Ralph's mind was a bit scrambled at the time too from the concussion, it was possible too he assumed Bill drew first whether or not he actually did. Would also explain him not remembering Kevin on top of the suit as well. They did say it was circumscribed amnesia and that he'd remember some things and not others. While Kevin is old enough to not have been forgotten totally (or he really would've been in a serious state with the concussion), it was possible too he'd forget about Kevin that day or a few days prior to that particular day Ralph remembers.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2006 22:50:04 GMT -5
Still on that TE, I think the fanfic stories that have Tony as Bill's new junior partner is quite feasible (sorry I don't remember the author or authors who've done this). Look at the young Maxwell with the older partner Harlan. Bill admits that he was a "punk kid" when Harlan became his first partner. And Bill consider Tony a punk kid as well (I didn't think I'd posted this... but I was thinking it recently, catching up on GAH). So maybe Bill will do for Tony as Harlan did for him all those years ago, and teach him to fly right. Although being in Korea and a Sergeant under Captain Winslow was a good start too, I'm sure. Only stories I know of with Tony in an FBI capacity are mine in the Aidan Hinkley series and Ms B mentioning Tony in the academy in "Time Heals All Wounds." It's been mentioned in that series (in "Ties that Fly") that Tony did study under Maxwell at the academy, but I've never mentioned him working with Tony in real life scenarios except the ones Bill can help out in after Aidan receives the suit and Bill and Ralph are retired from the suit. It'd been interesting if they had done or do a reunion movie where Tony did train under Maxwell's leadership and became an FBI agent. Would've set them up for a totally new team, even if Bill retired and Tony was paired up with Holly or some new fella.
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Post by jopierce on Dec 28, 2006 23:19:04 GMT -5
I bet that Bill wasn't a punk, but rather Wild in his arrogance...
Think back to Vanity. Look at those films shots of the younger Maxwell, 1953, where he is just gung ho... twirling guns... He's The Man.
Here's a scenario.
Bill just got out of the army, where he was a hot shot, taken under Winslow's wing. Bill thinks he's a hot dog.
Somehow Bill is recruited to go to help a revolution in Latin American County. (Was this single handedly? Hmmmm?? Why just him? If he was chosen as The Guy to do it, he's gonna get an even bigger head!) So now he thinks he's a real hot dog.
That's the Bill that probably came back to the US, thinking he was god's gift. Arrogant. Full of himself. The world is his. Did he also just find a girl and get married? Was this his top of the world?
Now, put someone like that in the FBI Academy. He's gonna make the old guard pretty unhappy. His partner is going to have to knock him down a notch or two, right? Maybe teach him how to shoot straight....
Then, after Harlan, imagine being knocked down once more... in Phoenix. First in line Klein keeps stealing his cases...
The Maxwell we know and love is probably VERY different than the kid he once was...
Ok. It's just a scenario. Any other thoughts?
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 28, 2006 23:25:24 GMT -5
Still... it was risky regardless. Someone could've screamed, Bill inadvertently move the gun to a student, and Bill or Tony react and punch Bill... causing a fight. Could something have happened even with this? Maybe. Would've... probably not as we saw. Regardless, the mind too will play tricks on you even healthy, letting you be mistaken about something. Given Ralph's mind was a bit scrambled at the time too from the concussion, it was possible too he assumed Bill drew first whether or not he actually did. Would also explain him not remembering Kevin on top of the suit as well. They did say it was circumscribed amnesia and that he'd remember some things and not others. While Kevin is old enough to not have been forgotten totally (or he really would've been in a serious state with the concussion), it was possible too he'd forget about Kevin that day or a few days prior to that particular day Ralph remembers. Funny that he remembers that WHOLE day, but isn't panicked enough to hear he lost his memory to inquire about his son who he had left with a BABYSITTER eight months ago. And I have heard of those fanfics, Billswoman. I believe they fall under the category of "crock" and/or "useless." Everyone knows that the only two talented kids are Cyler and Rhonda.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2006 23:28:26 GMT -5
Still... it was risky regardless. Someone could've screamed, Bill inadvertently move the gun to a student, and Bill or Tony react and punch Bill... causing a fight. Could something have happened even with this? Maybe. Would've... probably not as we saw. Regardless, the mind too will play tricks on you even healthy, letting you be mistaken about something. Given Ralph's mind was a bit scrambled at the time too from the concussion, it was possible too he assumed Bill drew first whether or not he actually did. Would also explain him not remembering Kevin on top of the suit as well. They did say it was circumscribed amnesia and that he'd remember some things and not others. While Kevin is old enough to not have been forgotten totally (or he really would've been in a serious state with the concussion), it was possible too he'd forget about Kevin that day or a few days prior to that particular day Ralph remembers. Funny that he remembers that WHOLE day, but isn't panicked enough to hear he lost his memory to inquire about his son who he had left with a BABYSITTER eight months ago. And I have heard of those fanfics, Billswoman. I believe they fall under the category of "crock" and/or "useless." Everyone knows that the only two talented kids are Cyler and Rhonda. OK smart alec, I know you don't like the team of Aidan with Tony, but I do have a story where Aidan's paired up with Cyler for a mission. He's going to be appearing more in that series as well. (I like Cyler and Rhonda too, BTW. )
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 28, 2006 23:32:01 GMT -5
And MelMac, I wasn't referring to your stories, although they do fit those categories. I was talking about fan fictions where Tony and Bill are partners and the like...I have heard of them, but I cannot remember where...I thought on this forum...but they fall under those categories too. Lower your dander...one person flailing uselessly is enough...*looks toward Josie*
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2006 23:44:20 GMT -5
And MelMac, I wasn't referring to your stories, although they do fit those categories. I was talking about fan fictions where Tony and Bill are partners and the like...I have heard of them, but I cannot remember where...I thought on this forum...but they fall under those categories too. Lower your dander...one person flailing uselessly is enough...*looks toward Josie* Oh no... I'm using the mind push again. HD's using lower your dander, which is one I use a lot too in my Texas slang ... AHHHHHHH!!!! ( ) I do think, however, a Bill/Tony team where they're busting the bad guys is a bit odd, given when Tony would be in the service. Odd thing was too, when I heard punks... instead of the '80s meaning, I thought of the little wooden sticks you light up to set off the charges for fireworks.
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Post by herald7 on Jul 31, 2011 13:58:00 GMT -5
Ok I'll admit Train of Thought is one of my favorite episodes, even if it does utilize the dreaded amnesia cliche, lol. I think in order to make it effective and not boring, amnesia plotlines really need to play into the emotions of the characters. And here you really do feel the pain Bill is going through at essentially losing his best friend. I remember Culp talking about how Bill "loves his kid but he can't tell him." And now Bill may never have the chance with Ralph pulling away from him, however unintentionally.
Btw, I know people have talked about Ralph acting all rude in this episode. I actually think that's Rule #79 of the Amnesia Cliche: "Character with amnesia must behave like a jerk to his friends until the end of the episode when his/her memory is restored, at which point he/she is free to return to his/her normal, lovable self!" Lol
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Post by MelMac on Jul 31, 2011 22:49:51 GMT -5
As mentioned some years back it looks like - I think here it fit well though because with it being circumscribed amnesia (which alone is a twist to the traditional cliche), it allows him to also subconsciously/unconsciously react to his true emotions of the suit.
I'm not a huge fan of amnesia stories in most genres because they tend to be convoluted, but this one did add quite a bit of humor as well as the seriousness. We got to see a good close up of the interior of bits and pieces of the suit too, which was nice. And we found that if Ralph fell into something, the suit did not have a smell repellant - at least in the initial attack.
It's also nice that this is one of the rare stories - I think out of two total - in the series where one of the trio is in the hospital with the doctor NOT questioning why the person was really injured or alluding to anything. I mean the other hospital bits:
Pilot - Ralph is admitted for being crazy because he's wearing the suit.
Beast in the Black - Ralph has the welts, Bill is brought in after being knocked out by the chandelier, and the doctor thinks they're doing something "kinky" to put it nice.
Train of Thought - Ralph - Knocked unconscious/has amnesia from colliding with the train, Bill lies about him being in a car wreck, and they pass it off with no hitch.
Live at Eleven - Bill barely coming into contact with the plutonium. There's not much questioning about him being there to begin with thanks to the mind push, and most of his comments are paranoia.
Plague - Ralph, Pam and Bill are in quarantine because of the smallpox issue, Carlisle at least is implying some question as to why Pam and Ralph are having to deal with the potential exposure to the smallpox.
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Post by prometheus74 on Aug 1, 2011 1:44:07 GMT -5
Ok I'll admit Train of Thought is one of my favorite episodes, even if it does utilize the dreaded amnesia cliche, lol. Same here! I really like this episode a lot. In this particular case, the amnesia aspect actually serves to remind us how far the main characters have come since the pilot episode. This could've been done with the much more (IMHO) dreaded "clip show" cliché. So we can actually count ourselves lucky! ;D This is in fact a very good episode. The amnesia theme may be a bit cliché, as you say, since there's usually such an episode in practically every TV series ever made. LOL. But in this case, it's very well done and very effective.
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Post by herald7 on Aug 1, 2011 5:28:15 GMT -5
Oh definitely, the only thing worse than an amnesia plotline is a clip show, ugh! If I ever see those, I pretty much change the channel, lol. And at this point amnesia is pretty much a right of passage for nearly every TV character (and super hero, lol). Another thing I liked in this episode was the ending....SPOILERS When Ralph fully wakes up from his amnesia, his first thought in reaction to Bill is to go to shake his hand. And this is echoed very nicely later in the montage where we see the two of them shake hands in the pilot.
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Post by herald7 on Aug 2, 2011 20:38:31 GMT -5
Btw, don't you love how on TV the cure for a blow to the head is another blow to the head?! LOL
My Dad was saying it made sense actually. When your TV doesn't work, you hit it, right? Same with TV characters, they just need a little knock to the head to get better, lol.
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