TGAH 2008 - After careful consideration...

[jopierce]

I decided to make a new thread for this, so the original TGAH 2008 thread is not affected.

First off, this is not an attack on the actors or even the people organizing it. I see TGAH 2008 as an endeavor. I want to separate that from individual people, if it is possible. I have no problem with people, but I have a problem with the endeavor.

Mods, you can delete this thread if you see fit. You can even give me a warning, or ban me if you want.

As one of the most active GAH fans here, you know me, my intents, my love of diplomacy, and my motto to "Share the Love." You know I don't like to flame. You know I try to be friends with everyone. In some cases, some of you have even become my friends outside of this site.

But even if the GAH community excommunicates me, I must speak my mind.

I am reposting a version of what I just sent to the GAH yahoogroup.

Then get out your asbestos underwear. I am not holding back.

***

I am through with this.

I have been pretty fair, I think, about this whole TGAH 2008
endeavor. I've tried to call it as I see it - some fanfic done by
someone who has the means to transfer their vision to film, and a lot of support (by some unknown) to get it off the ground.

I've been pretty neutral. If it gets off the ground, fine, but I'm
not a fan of Heroine. I prefer to ignore it completely.

Heroine is to GAH as Frasier is to Cheers. It's what the Jeffersons were to All in the Family.

But actually, it's more like After M*A*S*H. .. Heroine was a big flop. So, this whole endeavor was a real non-issue for me.

Ok, with that said, I went over and looked at the TGAH 2008 website again, including some of the part of the site that are new. And you know what? I am pretty friggin annoyed.

I have been really annoyed with the whole "TGAH 2008 is the biggest fan website" baloney from day one. I can't speak for others, but I bet my yearly wages that I am not alone in being annoyed.

I have been annoyed by the whole unsubstantiated claim that they researched the fan base for how many hours to see what we want. Again, I won't speak for others.

I have been annoyed by the marketing aspect of this whole thing.

I was annoyed by what I saw as using sex appeal rather than character as the basis for a suit wearer.

I was annoyed by the whole controversy of posters and suspicious IP addresses. Again, my words.

I have defended the endeavor - on many counts - but now, I turn my back on TGAH 2008. I go on public record as saying "You will get no love from me."

Why?

Now they have a fancy-schmansy Facebook-like community page. Nice idea. An online community. What a novel idea.

Granted, it's different than this site. Fine. Different strokes for
different folks. Whatever. And look... they have 113 members
already... !!

But wait! Are all these members the characters from the show? Huh? Or are they the actors? Hmmmm? It is wierd. About as wierd as those IP address questions.

So I tried to check it out. But to access this community, you
have to register to see profiles. Ok. Fair enough. Not unheard of.

So I decided to sign up, to show a little solidarity for GAH fandom.

But before I signed up, I read the terms of service.

Bollocks!

They have the right to sell advertising space with our profiles?
The right to give (sell?) third party access to all personal info
provided?
They reserve the right to charge fees...?

[url=http://my.tgah. com/community/ welcome.cgi
]And here is the best part. Go read their TOS. [/url]

TOS #2, #3, and #8 made me laugh. Then they made me throw something.

TOS #2: SUBMISSIONS
Anything you post you must own the rights to. You want us to ... and I quote "OWN IT LEGALLY."

But wait. There's more.

TOS #3. COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
Again, I will quote:

"TGAH respects the intellectual property rights of others. (Oh? Really?) Accordingly, TGAH has a policy of removing Submissions that violate copyright law," .... yada yada yada.

That's not all... look at this.

TOS #8. FEES

"TGAH reserves the right at any time to charge fees for access to new RJE content or services or to portions of the existing RJE content or services or to the RJE as a whole. In no event will you be charged for access to any RJE content or service, or to the RJE as a whole, unless we obtain your prior agreement to pay such charges. If you do not consent to such charges, however, you may not have access to paid content or services."

Bollocks.

This endeavor uses SJCannell's property to make some profit, then they are warning us not to do it?

Garbage.
Horse Hockey.

The website hosts entire transcripts that they did not write, use characters and a universe that they do NOT own the rights to, and then give us that long warning in their TOS?

I have some choice words, but I won't type them.

Ladies and Gents, that is no GAH Community. THIS group is the community. The yahoogroup is The Community.

Make up your own minds, folks. Respond as you will. But don't expect me to share the love.

Jo


EDIT 12/31/2007: I have changed the title of this thread to be more neutral.

[collazo]

I am sorry you feel that way. Do know this you are welcome at anytime to check us out when ever you feel like. I felt the same way when they threw George Clooney at us for the part of Batman. I stopped supporting the Batman Movies. However, a friend of mine brought over Batman Begins and I liked it. Not as much as the original but I really enjoyed it. Maybe this may happen for you then a again maybe not.

As I have said time and time again many people out on the Internet have their visions on how the story should continue, and no matter what I will support them. As they have supported us. This is why for Season Two GAH Fans write it we will film it, fans should always support each other.

I must admit that I am a bit offended by your remarks pertaining to our hours of research and our love for GAH. But like I have told you before you have your opinion and I will respect that and I have my opinion and you should respect that as well.

The only thing this thread does is create negativity. I hope this thread doesn't bait my staff, actors and fellow GAH supporters to be lured into your web of negativity.

Again, I am sorry you feel that way. You are welcome at anytime to check us out when ever you feel like.


"Collazo"

[jopierce]

Thank you, Mr. Collazo for your response. As I said, this was not aimed at you or your staff. I also recognized, however, that this is sometimes hard to separate.

I agree with you 110% that some people will not see a new series in a good light, no matter what. Your Batman analogy is excellent. Many have brought up Battlestar Gallactica as another series that people were not convinced about, but it did exceedingly well. I wish you success, and hope that you do have as much success.

I also agree that this thread creates some negativity. That is why I prefaced it with the note to the moderators. I will accept whatever punishment or warnings they see fit. I went into this with complete knowledge of that. I am usually the one around here spreading happiness, so this was hard for me to write.

Yes, my opinions are my own. And if you read through the boards and yahoogroup, I have always wished you luck, and was neutral because of my lack of love for Heroine. I have also acknowledged your hard work on MANY occasions. You get my full respect for your hard work.

But this endeavor will not get my excitement. It won't get my love. Your series may, if it is exceedingly good. Your passion, yes, gets my thumbs up. But this endeavor does not. The means and ways it is being advertised and presented is pretty much poison, as far as I am concerned. I finally decided I did not want to sit back and taste the poison without speaking up.

What I have a real hard time with, and the reason I have finally made up my mind of where I sit on the fence in terms of the project is the problem of copyright issues, and how that works out on the TGAH 2008 Site's TOS.

I am the first to say I am one of the hundreds and thousands of people who downloads images from the web. It is pretty much a fact of daily life. I joke and tease about SJC all the time. I know that we all use and talk about characters that we do not own in fanfic and in discussions.

I know that any website will have these disclaimers. I know that even this site has advertising. But not one person here makes any money off of that. The host of proboards probably does. But not us. In fact, I bet most of us - if asked - will say we hate the ads. We live with them because we must.

What I cannot get my head around is that the TGAH 2008 project is a commercial endeavor that uses the characters, "history" and story lines of the original GAH. It is also represented (even if not actually presented) as the official GAH remake.

I must admit that I am a bit offended by your remarks pertaining to our hours of research and our love for GAH. But like I have told you before you have your opinion and I will respect that and I have my opinion and you should respect that as well.

I am sorry that you misunderstood me. I never said you don't like or love GAH. I cannot remember ever saying that. I would not say that. It is obvious that you are passionate about it. I have mentioned that elsewhere on this site.

What I did say (in other words) was that there was a claim that so much market research done on the fanbase. If you were researching Buffy or Harry Potter, where there is a HUGE fanbase, it is completely possible that most people never would be asked their opinions. However, for a fandom like GAH, there really are only two main hubs that fans flock to. The yahoogroup and this group. We also overlap. There simply aren't other hubs out there. If there are, please let us know. I am the first to admit that I was mistaken.

Certainly, you may have done research. Certainly you may have asked fans. But no one that I know has been convinced that you asked what we see as the fanbase.

Maybe we have different opinions of what constitutes a fan base. I will conceed to that. I never said that you never did research. I just don't know what that research entailed. As a social scientist (in real life) this puts me on guard.

I also have no doubt that you will create a fan base for your endeavor.

However, what you create will not be The Greatest American Hero. It is an unofficial variant on a theme. I would have not one complaint if you called this something else:

"Heroine: The Next Generation."
"The Hathaway Chronicles"
"The Reluctant Hero"

But it's simply not GAH, and that is what many of us (I imagine) are having a hard time with. Also, I will not give it that status that it appears that you would like it to have. Others may, but I will not. I won't even give Heroine that status, and that had the original characters, the original producers, and original actors in it.

Some people will also say that those of us who resist TGAH 2008 will just create more interest. If it does, so be it. Again, I wish the endeavor well.

But until Mr. Cannell puts his stamp of approval of it, they can be fans of TGAH 2008 as well as fans of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for all I care. They can be fans of GAH 1981-1983 and TGAH 2008, but they will be fans of two different entities - just as I can be a fan of Star Trek, X-Files and Star Wars all at the same time.

Even if Mr. Cannell gives the thumbs up, it's still not GAH in my book. Just as Heroine was called something else... it's not GAHero. Call it something else, anything else, and all of my concerns are gone.

Jo

[MyTatuo]

Regretably, I do not have a lot of time today to devote to a carefully-worded post, explaining my position and what I feel to be the position of this board (as a moderator but not as the owner). Therefore, please do not take anything I say below the wrong way, or in a negative light. You can simply catorgorize it as my opinion, and I will allow the administrator to speak for the board if necessary.

*I* do not plan to ban or warn Jo, because although the thread itself ("will not support") seems negative, she has gone into great detail on her reasons, most of which are shared by others here, most of which STILL remain unanswered (and since they were put here in such detail and still were not answered, I will assume this means they will never be answered.) And since they are all written about above, I don't need to repeat them.

Regretably, I DO feel that since these questions have all been asked and unanswered, all this thread will accomplish WILL be to attract the "badboys" in the project to come and flame us. And since I cannot ban their IP without banning them all, my options are limited. If it gets out of hand, my hands will be tied in that regard; I will have no choice but to force collazo to log in using his iPhone if he so chooses.*

However, what I DO have the ability to do is warn/ban usernames, including long-time posters here, so I will "warn" those people to be careful when posting THEIR feelings here. You may not support them, but it is possible to cosexist here, just as we can all debate Bill vs Ralph, and Heroine vs WassatNeverHeardOfIt. And how can we complain that they are not sharing enough info with us when we block them from sharing here, either with our negativity or by provoking them? Again, Jo was cautious enough above; I think we can all debate with resorting to fighting, name-calling, hair-pulling, whatever...

*Of course, he may feel it is no longer worth the effort, since why do they need to update us here since THEY have the largest GAH comm... whoops, my personal feelings crept in there again...

[Ms Boku]

Well I'm not going to get negative or bash, and you all know how I feel about Heroine in general. But I will stand by Jo. She has raised valid points and she has adequately articulated them as I would not have been able to.
To tell you the truth I was interested until I found out it was a Heroine thing, Like I said this is not a bash I just hated Heroine.
But good luck on your project.
I hope this doesn't overstep any boundaries.

[HoudiniDerek]

mytatuo said:

Regretably, I do not have a lot of time today to devote to a carefully-worded post, explaining my position and what I feel to be the position of this board (as a moderator but not as the owner). Therefore, please do not take anything I say below the wrong way, or in a negative light. You can simply catorgorize it as my opinion, and I will allow the administrator to speak for the board if necessary.

*I* do not plan to ban or warn Jo, because although the thread itself ("will not support") seems negative, she has gone into great detail on her reasons, most of which are shared by others here, most of which STILL remain unanswered (and since they were put here in such detail and still were not answered, I will assume this means they will never be answered.) And since they are all written about above, I don't need to repeat them.

Regretably, I DO feel that since these questions have all been asked and unanswered, all this thread will accomplish WILL be to attract the "badboys" in the project to come and flame us. And since I cannot ban their IP without banning them all, my options are limited. If it gets out of hand, my hands will be tied in that regard; I will have no choice but to force collazo to log in using his iPhone if he so chooses.*

However, what I DO have the ability to do is warn/ban usernames, including long-time posters here, so I will "warn" those people to be careful when posting THEIR feelings here. You may not support them, but it is possible to cosexist here, just as we can all debate Bill vs Ralph, and Heroine vs WassatNeverHeardOfIt. And how can we complain that they are not sharing enough info with us when we block them from sharing here, either with our negativity or by provoking them? Again, Jo was cautious enough above; I think we can all debate with resorting to fighting, name-calling, hair-pulling, whatever...

*Of course, he may feel it is no longer worth the effort, since why do they need to update us here since THEY have the largest GAH comm... whoops, my personal feelings crept in there again...

Cosexist? I prefer women over being cosexist.

And personally, I don't mind it including the idea of HEROINE as an attempt to remake or whatnot. That makes perfect sense to me and I would have done the same thing....just like I would have included a reference to VANITY in HEROINE if applicable. To me, SJC included them in the GAH universe, so they should be built upon by anyone trying come after.

That being said, I agree with several points that Josie made. The main problem I have: It seems too contrived. If people thought HEROINE was forced, this seems to be as much forced if not more so to me with the storyline.

Hopefully, they have the best of luck and I am sure I will watch the web episodes when they come out. However, I am not sure I will be a fan. I will try to keep an open mind and wish them the best, but I cannot be overly excited....mainly for a number of reasons mentioned by Josie...and the last one alluded to by MyTatuo.

[jopierce]

A note: I have changed the title of this thread from "Why I will not support 2008" - which some may see as negative - to the above "TGAH 2008- After careful consideration...."

I don't want to flame or cause trouble. I don't want to cause negativity, but negativity has to be dealt with if I feel it around me.

I did not bring that negativity. I simply was the one person willing to point out the elephant standing in the room.

---

You people know my feelings about GAH, Heroine, fanfiction, fanfilms and this project. You also know how I feel about a commercialized GAH.

In the one case where GAH was commercialized, it was a minor disaster. I am referring, of course, to the official release of GAH on DVD by Anchor Bay.

In that case, it was the fans who lost out when copyright issues bubbled to the surface, specifically in regards to cutting out the original music. Some good things came out of the release, for sure, but there was a lot of integrity lost. For those of us who saw it first run or in its original format, you understand what I mean.

I hope that any additional commercialized endeavors, and those who seek profit from GAH or its revival, can work things out between the creators and the copywrite owners to everyone's satisfaction - including the fans of the show.

I wish all fans the best of luck with their fan endeavors, done for their love of GAH.

[MyTatuo]

houdiniderek said:

mytatuo said:

.... You may not support them, but it is possible to cosexist here, just as we can all debate Bill vs Ralph, and Heroine vs WassatNeverHeardOfIt. ...

Cosexist? I prefer women over being cosexist.

Hey, don't knock it til you've... I mean, that was a typo.

Leave it to HD to point out it out. I BELEIVE I said I didn't have much time to write that, or to spell check, aparantlly

[jopierce]

He was too busy nitpicking to actually read the post.

[HoudiniDerek]

jopierce said:

He was too busy nitpicking to actually read the post.

You should talk.

And I read it: If you note, that is NOT the only part of my post.

[MelMac]

Didn't even notice the cosexist wording until rereading the thread. Too funny.

(But, given that I said Potsie was the last president of the Republic of Texas by error and not Anson Jones ... can't say much. )

[HoudiniDerek]

melmac said:

Didn't even notice the cosexist wording until rereading the thread. Too funny.

(But, given that I said Potsie was the last president of the Republic of Texas by error and not Anson Jones ... can't say much. )

Doesn't surprise me.

[MelMac]

houdiniderek said:

melmac said:

Didn't even notice the cosexist wording until rereading the thread. Too funny.

(But, given that I said Potsie was the last president of the Republic of Texas by error and not Anson Jones ... can't say much. )

Doesn't surprise me.

At least I knew there were several Presidents of the Republic of Texas - or the fact there was such a thing. (I say this because one of the few questions I get off an on from kids is "Why do people say there are six country flags for Texas? That one's the Texas flag.")