scenario
Agent
"We all do what makes us feel good."
Posts: 335
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Post by scenario on Feb 13, 2005 11:34:00 GMT -5
I watched GAHeroine on my DVD and I am having some different thoughts on the episode. Believe it or not (pun intended), I don't feel the vile hatred for this episode that I once did. It's still terrible, but it has grown on me. I've accepted GAHeroine as part of TGAH's overall lore and mythology...much the same way finding the whereabouts of Don Cervantes is. What I like about this episode: 1. The montage of clips from the series with "Heroes are Human" playing. 2. Ralph and Pam being beamed up to the greenguy ship and the talk they have with the aliens. 3. Ralph, Pam and Bill's goodbyes, with "Sometimes" playing. 4. Mary Ellen Stuart is easy on the eyes, and it's clear that the producers were going to play up her sex appeal had the pilot sold. 5. Ralph and Bill's search for a new person to carry on the suit with Whitney Houston's "Greatest Love of All" playing. 6. The fact that Brandon Tartikoff wanted it made and NBC considered a new series 3 years after GAH went off the air, is a testament to the original show. The episode had it's moments, and there were a couple of times it came close to displaying the kind of intelligent wit and humour found so often in the original series. I still crack up when Holly tells Bill about little Sarah and says, "It's hard to believe someone would just throw a child like her out isn't it?", and Bill responds "Yeah it's got me stumped". BRAVO!! That's GAH type of intelligent adult humour, and I loved that. Bill's double take of "Anything's Pawsable" was also great. Who knows? Perhaps after a few episodes they could have actually gotten things right and veered away from the childish cartoon tone they started out with. Ofcourse there's a whole list of things from GAHeroine to dislike or outright hate, from the shiny disco suit to Mary Ellen Stuarts god awful acting, the dumb training sequence on the football field, and then that stupid fight Holly had in the tavern. Then there's the fact that our Ralph Hinkley could never own the suit anymore and the trio of characters we had grown to love was broken apart. I was nearly throwing things at my TV set when I first saw this episode in syndication back in 1988, because I couldn't believe what I was seeing and how miserably it was all handeled. The episode played badly during the first half, but it was still watchable enough for me. Once Ralph and Pam leave and it's Bill and Holly the show just goes totally down the toilet for me. I don't mind this episode as much as I used to. I'm *almost* tempted to accept it as cannon, but don't get too excited there J-Man. Ultimately I'm going to still say that the episode never happened, but you know what? I'm kinda glad it was filmed anyways. It's just a pretty cool thing to have, despite it's grandiose crappiness. The biggest thing for me is that it never aired. Yes I know the last 4 episodes of GAH never aired on ABC, but they were going to be aired, they were part of the original series and therefore cannon. NBC never even picked up GAHeroine. It's all just so unbelievably stupid and embarrassing too. You get the feeling that this episode is what the general public tended view the original series, just a total Saturday morning kiddie series. GAHeroine is more alternate universe stuff to me, but yes I admit that it's a neat bit of trivia to have and watch from time to time. On the interviews in the DVD extras, Connie Sellecca was talking about dressing her kids up in the suit for Halloween, she mentioned that she didn't want to dress her daughter up as "The Greatest American Heroine", not because the episode sucked but because she wanted her daughter to be the "Hero". But still, you got the feeling that the franchise probably only expanded and benifited by having The Greatest American Heroine as part of it's lore. It's sorta like having a Spider-Girl or Supergirl as part of our franchise. In that way, I do think it is a bit neat. Anyone can wear that suit if it's the greenguys perogative, no matter your sex, race, creed, color or persuasion as Bill Maxwell would say. -scenario- EDIT: Yikes, it appears I posted this topic about 5 times. If the mods would be so kind to just delete the others!! I also accidently voted that show is cannon, instead of "Hell no" like I intended too. Oh well.
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Post by The J-Man on Feb 13, 2005 13:26:10 GMT -5
Well, I voted that the show IS cannon, and that was no accident
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scenario
Agent
"We all do what makes us feel good."
Posts: 335
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Post by scenario on Feb 13, 2005 18:35:05 GMT -5
^LOL. You do realize I was just razzing you about the GAHeroine thing don't ya?
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Post by jasonrobertyates on Feb 15, 2005 10:44:44 GMT -5
::)Well I think GAHeroine is cannon. But I treat it as I treat Galactica 1980. A bad dream, or alternate universe. EARTH 2!!! For as much as it did suck. It would have sucked harder if they had NOT included GAHeroine in the DVD's. Atleast they thought enough to give it to us. But it proves that THEY didnt even consider it cannon by not including it in the last season dvd set to follow continuity. It is included instead as an after thought. A bonus feature.
???I havent picked up my set yet. How did so many get thiers already. Was that from the Feb 8th mess up.
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Post by greenguy on Feb 15, 2005 11:00:11 GMT -5
LOL...I also treat it as Galactica 1980, or the 4th Canadian made season of Airwolf. As stated above a couple of nice moments can be found. Even after the goodbye, Culp was still excellent...but overall the end result was worse than any episode of the original series.
Yes because of the street date screw up, many online sources started shipping the set before the 8th. Even Wal-Mart here locally had it on the shelf last week.
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Post by jasonrobertyates on Feb 15, 2005 11:09:44 GMT -5
I work at TARGET (along with doing my comic) so I am getting mine at 10% off today. I HOPE. We didnt even get any shippments of it last week.
Wow. Walmart sold them already eh? That's a $3000 fine per sale for them.
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Dan
Counselor
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Post by Dan on Feb 15, 2005 11:22:52 GMT -5
I've wanted to watch this for quite some time now. However after getting the DVD, I'm not ready to see Ralph give up the suite yet. Just couldnt do it.
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Post by jasonrobertyates on Feb 15, 2005 11:27:26 GMT -5
Yeah DAN I am just glad it's there.
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Post by greenguy on Feb 15, 2005 12:04:09 GMT -5
Wow. Walmart sold them already eh? That's a $3000 fine per sale for them. Yeah, at least one Wal-mart in the area had them last Tuesday. Somehow the date really was confusing to some. Have you noticed the banner ad provided to us from the marketing company working with the set? It still has the date of Feb. 8th. If they didn't have it correct, no wonder retailers started selling early by mistake.
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Post by Mr. H on Feb 15, 2005 13:28:41 GMT -5
Well sorry to disagree gents, but I vote a serious NAY on GAHeroine being canon. Yeah it was filmed - but aside fomr it being godawful- NBC never picked it up, never aired it, and on top of all of that it's only HALF of the original script. I look at it as a test film. A professional what-if fan procuction in a way. It's nice to see the trio back briefly in the beginning, the slicker Green Guy set, the farewell scene and err.. that's about it.
It's nice to have for the fans for sure.... but I know when I was working on some GAH fanfic I had to ignore Heroine because personal bias aside it breaks continuity with the established rules in the pilot.
For the same reasons I've had to view the events in Vanity Says the Preacher with some serious grains of salt as well. (and I'll defend Liliacs til the day I die, but I have to admit Vanity has problems. Even the script for Long Fall..... had its own share of issues....)
but that's my two cents. It's good to have it on the DVD though.
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scenario
Agent
"We all do what makes us feel good."
Posts: 335
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Post by scenario on Feb 15, 2005 20:46:44 GMT -5
Hey Mr. H your thoughts are on basically the same wavelength as mine. I'm actually surprised that so many people view GAHeroine as cannon. I'm bit "WTF, I never expected these results". Keep in mind I accidently voted "for" instead of "against", so there should be two nay votes on there.
I agree that GAHeroine is just terrible, it's redemming moments are simply not enough to save it for me. It was only half the script and key moments of dialogue are missing, the audience is left wondering what the hell this story was about and how after 5 years could Ralph be outed publicly. In the pilot it was made clear that Ralph operated in a world very much like our own, a world as Stephen J. Cannell states, "does not accomdate superheroes". But all of a sudden in GAHeroine, people lose their cynicism and are quick to believe everything they see on TV.
In Star Wars and Star Trek the rules are that an episode or movie must be aired for it to be considred cannon...the novels don't count. I think the same should apply to GAH. GAHeroine's situation is totally different from the 4 unaired ABC episodes. NBC never even bought GAHeroine and it was never aired. Since Heroine never aired, it is not cannon and merely a somewhat amusing alternate universe tale.
-scenario-
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Post by CodyCoyote on Feb 15, 2005 20:49:05 GMT -5
One quote from the Robert Culp School of acting:
"I didn't know you had any....
...kids."
Master of the pregnant pause.
Anyhow, canon is moot these days. Battlestar Galactica start over from the beginning, and who could forget the "Wiggy Wild West" with Will Smith? Far worse than "Heroine".
Worst points of heroine for me: NBC music/chimes during title sequence i-n-e Bill talking into tape recorder Exercise sequence
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Post by jasonrobertyates on Feb 15, 2005 20:52:24 GMT -5
Well sorry to say. GAHeroine did air in the 80's when i first saw it. Then in the 90's on fx channel when i taped it. The on kdoc in cali when i taped it again.
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jimk
Counselor
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Post by jimk on Feb 16, 2005 10:00:01 GMT -5
Mr. H, while it's not exactly on this topic, I'm curious: what are your issues with "Vanity, Says the Preacher"? I've never seen it, so how does it somehow deviate from the series?
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Post by greenguy on Feb 16, 2005 11:30:54 GMT -5
Well sorry to say. GAHeroine did air in the 80's when i first saw it. Then in the 90's on fx channel when i taped it. The on kdoc in cali when i taped it again. I think what he meant was TGAHeroine never aired on NBC, the network it was produced for.
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Post by jasonrobertyates on Feb 16, 2005 11:42:22 GMT -5
I watched it again last night and it wasnt as bad as I remember. If they had a chance to develope some chemistry it may have done well.
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Post by Mr. H on Feb 16, 2005 14:41:11 GMT -5
Scenario: Glad to see we're on the same wavelength. I think the childish tone of the pilot along with the the way Holly was chosen to bear the suit as well as the retention of Maxwell with Holly is what really makes the pilot feel off-kilter and not really a part of the GAH universe I know. It's just bad. Since when do the Green Guys allow the previous suit bearer to choose a successor and not do the picking themselves? It was silly.
Culp's on record saying it was his idea.. I don't know if that was a reaction to Katt not coming back or something he came up with even before NBC asked Cannell to restart the series but I'd like to think his original idea was better than this pilot turned out. I have great respect for his writing overall - especially his I Spy scripts - but I always felt he needed someone to edit his GAH scripts. Even Liliacs- which plays more like an I Spy episode than a GAH episode, needs a tweak or two- but I still love that one overall.
Jason: Just because the episode airs in syndication, doens't count it as canon. I'm willing to make an exception perhaps to the ABC final 4 episodes - but it does give me a nice out if I want to ignore Vanity for continuity reasons.
I didn't know KDOC aired Heroine though. I religiously taped and watched both runs in the summer of 2000 and no Heroine. (Which I think was the smart move actually) I had to get my copy from an 80's run. Did they show it during the funky weekend slots they put the show in later?
I think Heroine at best provides some kind of on screen closure to the Ralph/Pam/Bill relationship. That scene is played well. It's just not the way I think it should have ended.
Cody: Canon is a debatable issue especially once unaired shows/novels/comics etc come into the mix. This gets even more hairy when aired shows/movies blatently clash with each other due to poor Script Supervisors or froced change in direction. (the worst example of this I can think of are the second seasons of Buck Rogers and War of the Worlds)
The examples you cited are mostly fresh reboots or remakes altogether- never meant to be taken as conon with the originals. Heroine as it stands was meant to be seen as a continuation style reboot of the concept.
The sheer fact it does this and it was made at all means like it or not, soe will consider it canon and other like me will dismiss it on the grounds I've already stated.
Vanity: Well you'd have to see it to know exactly what I'm talking about.
Aside from the muddledness of the plot - which I can maybe blame on the rushed production I heard plagued this episode.... I was bothered by the pat ending (how was the letter and Ralph's speech supposed to suddenly make everything alright at the end?) and the use of the Green Guys.
In every other appearance, including Heroine, the Green Guys appeared in Palmdale. They sought them out there or they were dragged there. This is the only time the UFO appears elsewhere, let alone outside of the U.S.
Now, that's not to say the UFO can't appear elsewhere, there were implications of a one-time Mexican suit wearer in the episode as well as plans for a Greatest Russian Hero two parter - so I can roll with that ...kinda. My bigger question is why did the green guys have to appear then? The situation comparedwith many other episodes, didn't seem big enough to warrent them coming down and intervening. Had this been Operation: Spoilsport or something, I could maybe understand- that's armegeddon/nuclear war at stake. But the stakes here seemed almost petty in comparison.
Also once in the ship, Ralph and Bill make a bunch of revaltions- mostly assumptions on thier part which we the viewers have to kinda take as 'official' even though it doens't entirely jive with what we saw in the Pilot.
Ralph and Bill see a bunch of aliens in pair sin cryo or hibernation stored away for safe keeping on board the UFO. Each of the pairs are being 'taught' like sleep therapy or prepared to become another team to gain a suit. The assumption is that these would be teams on other planets or maybe other parts of the Earth - but Bill immediatly think these are thier own replacements should they fail in thier mission to save the planet.
Well as I recall, none of the pairs were human. I find it hard to beleive that the Green Guys would send in aliens with the suit and freak the average bystande rout even more than a guy running around in a cape and longjohns. Also this implies that before Ralph and Bill were approche din the desert- they too were whisked up for a time and sleep-taught to be prepared as a team to take on the suit at some point before the Pilot which I find hard to swallow.
It's redundant for one, and it also means they could take almost anyone and prep them to take on the suit and its responsibilities. One of the reasons I like the characters so much is that you assume they are at thier core and especially with Ralph- findamentally good people who will do the right thing. It's because of those reasons that they were chosen for the task they wer given. Vanity's revelation strips that away.
I'm all behind the notion that there are other people on Earth in other parts of the world or in the universe who are given suits or technology to help thier people - but the way Culp presented it felt out of synch with the rest of the series.
Or maybe I missed something but I've read the script and seen this episode several times and I don't think I'm getting the wrong idea here.
I'd welcome any discussion on this though.
-Mr H
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jimk
Counselor
Posts: 76
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Post by jimk on Feb 16, 2005 14:49:06 GMT -5
Wow! As I haven't seen "Vanity," I'll just have to hold off on further discussion until I get the season 3 set!
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Post by jasonrobertyates on Feb 16, 2005 18:07:17 GMT -5
Well thought out. But it boils down to the fact that it is your personal opinion as to what is cannon or not.
When I taped the KDOC episodes and when they started airing them on saturday only, one day they aired GAHeroine instead of the baseball episode like satellite said they were. I caught it by accident.
In my opinion Cannell didnt consider GAHeroine cannon cause he didnt write it (I dont think) and it is given to us in this DVD format as a bonus rather than added to the season 3 disc.
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Post by Mr. H on Feb 17, 2005 12:12:37 GMT -5
So KDOC DID show it when it moved to saturdays! Interesting. Well I can't say I feel bad with my 3rd gen bootleg. It still ain't that good.
Yeah I guess it boils down to my opinion. But at least I can back it up. I think what really throws thes einto a tailspin is that none of these episodes aired during original run - Heroine was a tagon-spinoff-incomplete pilot and none of them were written by Cannell.
Granted it's all perspective. I love Firefly and I count those three unaired episodes unequivocally as canon.
And you're right- sinc eit's a bonus and not tagged on the end like a final episode I further look at it as just an oddity- not an episode in the run.
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