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Post by MiltonMaxwell on Apr 11, 2005 13:19:57 GMT -5
What Happened to 3rd Season? Obviously 3rd season is our least favorite season so what happened?
I have several theories. In think, if I remember correctly, that Cannell's son had did or something and he wasn't that involved in 3rd season. Babs came in as the new producer and things obviously changed. Basically, there were several problems;
1. Steven Cannell only wrote a couple of scripts. Most of the scripts were by Babs or some new guys. Gone were the great scripts of old.
2. The kids disappeared compeletely. Ralph apparently no longer had a job. The real world of Ralph, Pam, and Bill was replaced with the Hollywood, I'm there when you need me.
3. The humor was diminished. When it was there it was not subtle. I remember the great running gag with Maxwell eating dog biscuits, but in 3rd season the only episode where he was eating dog biscuits (one of the better episodes) they were so blatantly obvious about it with Bill holding the box to the camera and commenting, "I'm running out of biscuits here." Not the subtlety of the first 2 seasons.
4. The relationship between Bill and Ralph noticably changed. Their friendly sparing was either replaced with open fighting or not present at all. The conservative vs. liberal ideology joke seemed have disappeared as well.
Of course there were still good episodes, most written by our leftover script writers from the first two seasons, but it was a sad memorial to a great show.
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Post by mom2jared on Apr 11, 2005 13:53:20 GMT -5
Well to answer some of your questions, first of all, in the 3rd Season Ralph and Pam got hitched. The students from the first season, Rhonda, Tony, Cyler and Rodriguez were replaced with new kids but Ralph was still teaching Special Ed at Whitney High School. I heard that Stephen Canell's son died which is why he probably wasn't there much but there was a lot of discord between him and the new writers.
Hope that answers some of your questions.
Ilana
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Post by ThatGirl on Apr 11, 2005 14:43:05 GMT -5
But...Tony is there for two shows, right? The wedding, and some other episode.
Right? Right? Please say right!!!
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Post by MyTatuo on Apr 11, 2005 14:55:18 GMT -5
Right. "The Newlywed Game," and that other episode. The one you're thinking of. Yeah, that one.
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Post by The J-Man on Apr 11, 2005 15:01:01 GMT -5
Cyler and Rodriguez replaced?? Bill only eating dog biscuits in one episode?? Y'know, you guys should try actually watching the third season, it's coming out on DVD this Summer: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007WQGYU/qid=1113249700/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-3194105-7641710?v=glance&s=dvd Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. Who knows? Although the third season had more than its fair share of clunkers, and there was only one episode written soley by Cannell himself (a big change from the first two seasons), I counter your "Gone were the great scripts of old", with: "Divorce, Venusian Style" by Patrick Hasburgh "The Price is Right" by Stephen J. Cannell "Heaven is in Your Genes" by Hasburgh "Desperado" by Cannell and Frank Lupo "Vanity, Says the Preacher" by Robert Culp Although the kids were very noticibly absent from the first four episodes of the third season (as they were from the last few episodes of the second season), they were back in full force after that. Maybe even too much, at times; or maybe I was having a harder and harder time buying the aging Jessie D. Goins and Don Cervantes as high school students. Which brings me to my next point... Cyler and Rodriguez were never replaced. If Jessie Goins missed an episode or two and they brought in Benny Medina to play Chaffee (or as I always call him "the emergency back-up Cyler"), well, they'd been doing that as far back as "Here's Looking at You, Kid". True enough, Rhonda and Tony were replaced; Michael Pare only appeared in one third season episode. Only one episode where Maxwell ate dog biscuits in the thirds season??? Oy vey, where do I start? Bill ate dog biscuits, on camera, in the third season in the following episodes, at the following locations: EPISODE 36 "Heaven is in Your Genes" at Bill's apartment. EPISODE 39 "Thirty Seconds Over Little Tokyo" at Ralph's House. EPISODE 41 "Desperado" at Ralph and Pam's vacation cabin. and as far as it being more subtle in the first two seasons, you mean like this scene from "Captain Bellybuster and the Speed Factory?: www.dancentury.com/home/archives/2005/04/10/dog-biscuits-and-cheap-wine/
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Post by ThatGirl on Apr 11, 2005 15:01:50 GMT -5
Whew! Close one. Thanks.
No fun that he's not in the full 3rd season. Did he and the other kids leave or were they booted?
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Post by ThatGirl on Apr 11, 2005 15:13:01 GMT -5
Y'know, you guys should try actually watching the third season, it's coming out on DVD this Summer. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. Who knows? What a good idea! Wish I'd thought of it. I really don't have the opportunity to watch it, until I get the DVDs.It is my understanding that Paré came back for one more episode.
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Post by MiltonMaxwell on Apr 11, 2005 15:15:07 GMT -5
TheJMan, you are partially correct. The kids were there ... barely. They were obviously not a real part of the show although you might be able to show me one or two episodes. On the dog biscuits, I mentioned Heaven is in Your Genes (which I consider one of the better 3rd season episodes) but did miss the other two. As for the scripts, you named only five (three of which were the BEST episodes from 3rd season) so I think I scored right on at that point. In first and 2nd season practically every script (with a couple of exceptions) were written by Cannell, Lupo, Bartlett, or Hapsburg. There was also another decent guy who wrote two scripts. Now, by your own admission, only five.
As for subtlety, that image is much more subtle than Heaven is in Your Genes, but I am not picking on that episode, mind you, only illustrating that the "nice touches" which everyone loved about 1st and 2nd season were largely missing.
Finally, I have seen all the episodes (although I obviously was not enthusiastic enough to catch those scenes in Desperado and Thirty Seconds Over Little Tokyo) and I WILL be buying 3rd season DVD set, but if you disagree with my dissertation then let me pose you the question ...
1. Would you put 3rd season on part with 1st and 2nd?
If not ...
2. What do YOU think were the major factors in the decline of 3rd season?
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Post by Maxwell - F.B.I. on Apr 11, 2005 15:21:56 GMT -5
Well, Faye Grant left for her role on V, that much I know. Personally, although I didn't care for some of the more serious 'fighting' between Ralph and Bill in season three, and while I did miss some of the more humorous moments, I really liked season three right up until the Space Ranger episode. From that point on, I thought it turned into an over medicore show (as J.J. Beck would say anyway), with the exception of the Desperado episode, which played (once again), like a classic G.A.H. episode overall, to me anyway. It makes me wonder in what order the episodes were filmes (seems like Desperado was shot much earlier than they planned on airing it)
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Post by enovak on Apr 11, 2005 15:29:01 GMT -5
I happen to like most of the third season. They did lack 'something' from the earlier seasons, but overall I like most of them just as much as episodes from season 1 or 2.
Season One is only 8 episodes and 'Roseda Rose' doesn't exactly thrill me as an episode.
And Season 2 has a fair share of clunkers too.
So I don't feel it's fair to pile on the 3rd season so much as being really bad.
The 3rd season is the only one I still have all the original broadcasts from ABC so I watch those the most.
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Post by MiltonMaxwell on Apr 11, 2005 15:34:49 GMT -5
Okay, no fighting here, just clarifying the writing issues.
1st & 2nd Season writer breakdown
Stephen J. Cannell - 12 (40% of the episodes) Frank Lupo - 7 (23% of the episodes) Juanita Bartlett - 5 (17% of the episodes) Patrick Burke Hasburgh - 5 (17% of the episodes) Rudolph Borchert - 2 episode (6%) Robert Culp - 1 episode (3%) Lee Sheldon - 1 episode (3%) Danny Lee Cole and Jeff Ray - 1 episode (3%)
3rd Season writer breakdown
Babs Greyhosky - 4 episode (31% of the episodes) Patrick Burke Hasburgh - 2 episode (16%) Stephen J. Cannell - 2 episode (16%) Frank Lupo - 1 episode (8%) Rudolph Borchert - 1 episode (8%) Robert Culp - 1 episode (8%) Shel Willens - 1 episode (8%) Danny Lee Cole and J. Duncan Ray - 1 episode (8%)
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Post by The J-Man on Apr 11, 2005 16:14:06 GMT -5
1. Would you put 3rd season on part with 1st and 2nd? If not ... 2. What do YOU think were the major factors in the decline of 3rd season? To answer your questions in order: 1. Not quite. 2. I think you said it quite well, yourself: 31% Babs Greyhosky. BTW, Ralph's students appear on-screen in the following third season episodes: EPISODE 35: "The Newlywed Game" EPISODE 36: "Heaven is in Your Genes" EPISODE 37: "Live at Eleven" EPISODE 38: "Space Ranger" EPISODE 39: "Thirty Seconds Over Little Tokyo" EPISODE 42: "It's Only Rock and Roll" 6/13...that's pretty much half in my book, and the exact same number of episodes they appeared in the 13 episodes immediately preceding the third season.
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jimk
Counselor
Posts: 76
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Post by jimk on Apr 11, 2005 16:25:22 GMT -5
Which ones did "Babs" write for episode three? And isn't Babs one of Cannell's stable of writers, who worked on a lot of his shows? I'm not saying Babs did good GAH work, but he (she?) wasn't an outside interloper, was he (she)?
I must say, I'm intrigued by season 3 -- Ralph and Bill having serious fights? I don't really recall any of this! I lick my lips in anticipation....
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scenario
Agent
"We all do what makes us feel good."
Posts: 335
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Post by scenario on Apr 11, 2005 16:53:55 GMT -5
Well, Faye Grant left for her role on V, that much I know. Personally, although I didn't care for some of the more serious 'fighting' between Ralph and Bill in season three, and while I did miss some of the more humorous moments, I really liked season three right up until the Space Ranger episode. From that point on, I thought it turned into an over medicore show (as J.J. Beck would say anyway), with the exception of the Desperado episode, which played (once again), like a classic G.A.H. episode overall, to me anyway. It makes me wonder in what order the episodes were filmes (seems like Desperado was shot much earlier than they planned on airing it) This is sorta how I have always felt. Everything up to Space Ranger was actually pretty damn good. It was starting with Space Ranger and onto the end that there was a noticeable drop in quality, with Desperado being the lone exception. I mean Wizards and Warlocks was pretty f*cking awful. The 3rd season only had two great episodes for me though, Divorce Venusian Style and The Newlywed Game, and even those two episodes don't rate as unanimously "great" in everyone's book the way the great episodes of the 1st and 2nd season do. Sometimes I have wondered if they knew they were going to be cancelled and just didn't give a damn. They had the A-Team up and coming as a blockbuster TV show anyways. Stephen J. Cannell and Frank Lupo not writing most of the scripts was a big problem. Where they so consumed by their new show The A-Team? -scenario-
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jimk
Counselor
Posts: 76
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Post by jimk on Apr 11, 2005 17:14:00 GMT -5
People are picking on Babs, but I did some online searchin' of my own, and see that Babs wrote both NEWLYWED GAME and THIS IS THE ONE..., which are exactly the two episodes I remember something about and, both, if I recall, are certainly decent. I am curious about the ones towards the end of the run, they likely already knew about their anemic ratings while filming, and that most likely lead to streamlined budgets (why work up new flying footage if you know the show is a goner?) and perhaps to Culp's strange-sounding episode getting a green light (He was an acclaimed writer, nominated multiple times for his I SPY scripts, maybe they figured while it was off-the-wall it was worth producing before they pulled the plug) -- certainly with all the debate, it is the episode I'm most curious to see...
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Post by The J-Man on Apr 11, 2005 17:31:05 GMT -5
Babs is definately one of Cannell's people, joining the company in 1982 (third season GAH); but as far as I'm concerned, her GAHs and A-Teams were pretty much the absolute worst. She pretty much couldn't write a "guy show".
"A-Team"s written by Babs Greyhosky: EPISODE 07 "Holiday in the Hills" EPISODE 11 "Till Death Do Us Part" EPISODE 16 "The Only Church in Town"
need I say more?
There were other shows that I thought she absolutely shined on, like "Riptide".
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scenario
Agent
"We all do what makes us feel good."
Posts: 335
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Post by scenario on Apr 11, 2005 18:35:45 GMT -5
J, didn't she write GAHeroine?
-scenario
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jimk
Counselor
Posts: 76
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Post by jimk on Apr 11, 2005 18:50:03 GMT -5
She did, but, hey, I don't think Cannell's 3rd season episode (the football one) was really doing much beyond rehashing the 2nd season's baseball episode! (I don't recall DESPERADO at all). I still think NEWLYWED and THIS IS THE ONE... aren't bad at all -- certainly having a woman writer on staff might not hurt -- give the Counselor a little more to do than usual!
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Post by Maxwell - F.B.I. on Apr 11, 2005 19:03:18 GMT -5
Well, to listen to Cannell tell it, he was constantly fighting with ABC about what type of show G.A.H. should be. He described it as the worst few years he's ever spent in television, so it might be safe to say that those circumstances had something to do with it. Such a shame. And, to throw in my two cents again, I should clarify... when I said that I thought everything from season three was good up until Space Ranger, I forgot about The Resurrection of Carlini - didn't care for that one at all (EXCEPT seeing Pam dressed up like that... oh baby). Also, I always "This Is The One The Suit Was Meant For" was kind of all over the place in terms of writing - not one of my favorites. But I loved the ending, so no worries. F.Y.I. Watching Reseda Rose right now... off the Japanese DVD set - "Rocket Man" playing as Ralph flies to save Rose... I thank God once again these overseas versions are available.
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Post by mom2jared on Apr 11, 2005 20:02:56 GMT -5
Babs was a romantic at heart like me. It figures that she wrote "The One the Suit was Meant for" and "The Newlywed Game".
Ilana
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