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Post by culpkatt on May 12, 2008 1:34:45 GMT -5
I was never too certain of the motives involved for blowing up the dam. Was it to create a 'brain drain' in the US with the side effect being agricultural devastation? I realize the bad guys were Chinese communists attempting to strike a blow to US capitalism, however, was destroying a dam really supposed to set our nation's technological advancements back a whole century?
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Post by mmderdekea on May 12, 2008 8:52:15 GMT -5
Just catching up to this thread today.
Yeah, I noticed Bill's Master Sergeant designation a long time ago. I think this is very impressive, if we figure he joined as a regular old private, and then worked up to MS in the few years he was in the Army, and that, mostly, serving in Korea. I think that Bill was devoted to his Captain, Tracy Winslow, and committed himself to be a very good soldier and got promotions as a result.
My personal view is that Bill did not go home after being shot but returned to Korea.
This is a great episode (but then again I love them all but Vanity), and the tag scene whereby we again see a slightly embarrassed Bill looking around to see if anyone noticed him (he doesn't like attention drawn to him much, due to goofy things, like in Ralph's clucking in the tag of Bellybuster), deciding that he needs to be un-Scenario'd by the hypnotist woman.
I have to agree that Bill's loyalty to his coworkers and even acquaintances is very well shown in this episode, with his not getting angry or upset with Tim, but instead concerned. Notice Bill doesn't even take out his own gun when being shot at--that's a first. He has no intention of firing against another Fed who is in some kind of trance, even though Tim is clearly shooting at him. That's very cool.
Bill getting "brainwashed" with Scenario was very cliched, but it worked fine in the show.
Mona
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Post by HoudiniDerek on May 12, 2008 8:58:00 GMT -5
I was never too certain of the motives involved for blowing up the dam. Was it to create a 'brain drain' in the US with the side effect being agricultural devastation? I realize the bad guys were Chinese communists attempting to strike a blow to US capitalism, however, was destroying a dam really supposed to set our nation's technological advancements back a whole century? General Chow did say that they were the leaders of industry and such, so it is very possible.
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Post by MelMac on May 12, 2008 13:12:00 GMT -5
What I like about it is that while we have the seriousness of the men under hypnosis and them possibly blowing up the dam, we have the silliness of hypnosis as well with Bill being hypnotized. Here you have "tough as nails" Bill, who would believe that anyone - including Ralph and Pam - would get put under hypnosis (mind you, in his POV, if it worked) instead of him, only to get put under himself. It's why I love the tag and him being embarrassed - it's the only way to show that even if you're a tough guy, wild things can happen to you. In a way, it was also good for him - and Ralph and Pam - to know that from a standpoint of an FBI agent should he be kidnapped and brainwashed. If that were to happen, the other two would know he could be if he started to act funny.
Still, because of this tough guy persona and not believing in hypnosis, he denies that he is under, and didn't even at first believe Tim was. Rhonda and Ralph showed concern first when Tim was under hypnosis, though admittedly Rhonda was worried he was going to have a seizure. Bill however, thought it was Tim being in the zone and thinking about an assignment, but when when Bill tried to stop him, that's when Tim pulled the gun.
That said, it showed restraint to not pull the gun on Tim, however, I do disagree in thinking that it's cool he didn't have that intention to fire at Tim if need be. At first he might've been shocked at the reaction Tim gave him, but Bill also has the other agent pulling the gun out and there's two civilians with him. IMHO, Bill did do the right thing and at least try to talk Tim out of firing his weapon, but if need be, he should've had been ready in case Tim tried to fire. And, as we've seen, Bill would wing the person first before killing, i.e. in "Divorce, Venusian Style" when he had a clear reason to shoot to kill if need be.
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Post by culpkatt on May 12, 2008 22:30:12 GMT -5
Why did they let Bill get away with saying Oriental "gink?" That is pretty racist, unless meant in a different way than it sounds...similar to how SJC has Murdock call B.A. a "mudsucker" maybe? In the script for this episode, Maxwell refers to General Chow as a "gook." Don't forget that Bill's a Korean War Vet and that was a fairly typical term that was applied to the enemy by American soldiers, especially in Viet Nam. I can see how some might consider it racist, but I think it was more of a way to denigrate the enemy.
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Post by MelMac on May 12, 2008 22:43:23 GMT -5
Why did they let Bill get away with saying Oriental "gink?" That is pretty racist, unless meant in a different way than it sounds...similar to how SJC has Murdock call B.A. a "mudsucker" maybe? In the script for this episode, Maxwell refers to General Chow as a "gook." Don't forget that Bill's a Korean War Vet and that was a fairly typical term that was applied to the enemy by American soldiers, especially in Viet Nam. I can see how some might consider it racist, but I think it was more of a way to denigrate the enemy. I agree, I think it was more of a way to insult the enemy and it stuck long after he served in the Korean War. Before I continue, I want to make it clear[/u] this is an example as to why I agree with culpkatt - I do not use these terms at people, nor will I. It's similar - but not exact - to some calling Chinese "coolies" or blacks "negros" (not exact mind you) back in the older days of the wild west and even to a point now. It wasn't improper for that time period, however, as the years have progressed, it's now considered racist. And, there's the "N-word," which is now very confusing and in some cases counter to the insult. If you're older, it's an insult (and should be given the way that blacks were treated in the days of the Civil War and Civil Rights movement), but you have rappers and younger blacks call themselves the word as though it's cool. Do I see Bill as a racist? - NO, but I can also see why he might use the term regardless. I just wish people would just use the proper terms for races of people, and not the slang terms.
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Post by herald7 on Aug 14, 2011 9:59:49 GMT -5
OK here we go, I always enjoyed Hand Painted Thai, it's just a fun little episode.
At first I thought Bill's hypnosis should have had more to do with the plot besides being comic relief. But after awhile I decided this does work too. Bill is so skeptical about the whole hypnosis thing, to the point where he potentially misses out on solving the case. So this was a comparatively harmless way of Bill experiencing it himself, and perhaps he won't be as stubborn next time, lol.
Still, I actually think Bill is an excellent subject for hypnosis. You have to be open to suggestions, no matter how bizarre. And Bill's been surprisingly open and accepting of a lot of strange happenings these past few months--spaceships, green guys, being best friends with an ex-hippie, lol, he's embraced these things amazingly well when you think about it! If anything, Ralph is the one who's had trouble accepting it all (though to be fair, he's the one who has to wear the goofy suit! Lol).
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Post by prometheus74 on Aug 14, 2011 14:56:40 GMT -5
Ralph: "Scenario!" Bill: "..........." ;D Yes, I really like this episode too. Bill's hypnosis is comic relief which shows the humorous flipside of the deadly hypnosis which is happening to others in this story. People are attacking others with guns, and jumping to their deaths off buildings, but Bill only has the little problem of falling asleep whenever someone says his favorite word: "scenario". And Ralph and Pam even have a little fun at Bill's expense towards the end.
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Post by herald7 on Aug 15, 2011 7:17:11 GMT -5
Yeah that's true, it helps to offset some of the surprisingly dark themes in the episode. You know this is just me, but I'd think Ralph would be a bit more difficult to hypnotize, with his rather sarcastic personality. I can picture him giving sardonic replies to anything a hypnotist might throw at him, lol. Of course there's "Sarcastic Ralph" and then there's "Wide-eyed, Idealistic Ralph." A hypnotist might have a little more luck with him, hehe. But it would still be a challenge. After all Ralph is protected by Rule #97 of The Main Character Clause: "Your Main Character is often noticeably more resistant to mind control than the secondary characters (at least at first). Especially if said Main Character is known for having a strong moral fiber."
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Post by MelMac on Aug 15, 2011 8:47:27 GMT -5
That is True Herald, but apparently there is a rules #98 for the hero:
"Your Main Character (or one of the higher up characters) in a series must experience at least one case where they are rendered unconscious in a really weird way and wake up with amnesia."
This really does tend to hold credence because we had Superman have amnesia due to blow on head from meteorite (TV series with George Reeve), Ralph the train, the coo-coo clock with Michael/Golo, etc.
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Post by Videofox on Aug 15, 2011 12:40:47 GMT -5
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Post by herald7 on Aug 15, 2011 14:05:54 GMT -5
"Your Main Character (or one of the higher up characters) in a series must experience at least one case where they are rendered unconscious in a really weird way and wake up with amnesia." Oh yeah amnesia's different. That's practically a requirement! I guess because it's usually accidental. Very rarely is it brought on by a villian (the only time I can think of off hand is Wonder Woman). Yeah that website does seem like the kind of thing I could get lost in for awhile, quite happily, lol. ;D
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Post by prometheus74 on Aug 15, 2011 19:36:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the links, Videofox. I checked out the site a bit already-----looks cool!
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Post by MelMac on Aug 16, 2011 8:50:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I liked that too because it does show a comparison on these both in fantasy and real-life. Though I do have to argue how they can really use the anterograde amnesia tactic though - the one where people forget or don't know what they're doing now.
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Post by Videofox on Aug 16, 2011 19:42:31 GMT -5
The worst example I ever saw was the "mass amnesia" that was invented for the War of the Worlds TV series back in the 80s. In order to make it tougher for our heroes to convince people the aliens were back, apparently the entire world save a few unlucky ones conveniently forgot about the original invasion because it was such a traumatic event. Oh please... like forty years down the road we're supposed to forget about things like Hiroshima/Nagasaki or 9/11? Things like that we wouldn't be *allowed* to forget. Too much evidence of trashed cities worldwide, destroyed monuments and spaceships and alien bodies lying about and no one had a camera. "HA!" I say!
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Post by herald7 on Aug 16, 2011 19:46:51 GMT -5
The worst example I ever saw was the "mass amnesia" that was invented for the War of the Worlds TV series back in the 80s. In order to make it tougher for our heroes to convince people the aliens were back, apparently the entire world save a few unlucky ones conveniently forgot about the original invasion because it was such a traumatic event. Oh please... like forty years down the road we're supposed to forget about things like Hiroshima/Nagasaki or 9/11? Things like that we wouldn't be *allowed* to forget. Too much evidence of trashed cities worldwide, destroyed monuments and spaceships and alien bodies lying about and no one had a camera. "HA!" I say! Hey that's like an old Star Trek: Next Generation episode I just remembered. An alien race gives the entire crew amnesia so they forget the past few days that they encountered them. But too many clues are left behind and the crew starts to investigate.
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Post by prometheus74 on Aug 16, 2011 19:57:52 GMT -5
Hey that's like an old Star Trek: Next Generation episode I just remembered. An alien race gives the entire crew amnesia so they forget the past few days that they encountered them. But too many clues are left behind and the crew starts to investigate. That's a very good ep. Isn't that the same one where there is a new First Officer sitting on the Bridge to the right of Picard, instead of Riker-----and the crew doesn't realize he doesn't belong there?
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Post by herald7 on Aug 16, 2011 20:16:14 GMT -5
That's a very good ep. Isn't that the same one where there is a new First Officer sitting on the Bridge to the right of Picard, instead of Riker-----and the crew doesn't realize he doesn't belong there? Actually that's a different episode involving amnesia, lol. Wow, now I feel silly that I said amnesia isn't done deliberately to characters very often. Clearly it's done more often than I remembered, lol. The one I mentioned earlier, the crew only forgets the last couple of days. The one Prometheus is mentioning is where the crew loses their memories completely.
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Post by prometheus74 on Aug 17, 2011 0:17:29 GMT -5
I remember the episode you mean now, MelMac------it's all coming back to me now (pun intended ). The episode's title is "Clues", if I remember correctly. The other one is "Conundrum". "Clues" is the episode in which only Data remembers what actually happened, but has to lie to his crewmates to protect them, because the aliens are isolationists who have threatened to destroy the Enterprise and its crew as a penalty for discovering their planet.
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Post by MelMac on Aug 17, 2011 0:38:03 GMT -5
Um... Prometheus... I think you may have amnesia... Herald mentioned the "Star Trek:TNG" coincidence, not me.
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