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Post by HoudiniDerek on Mar 7, 2007 9:47:04 GMT -5
Will the real "Greatest American Hero" please stand up? In my opinion, and it is humble............I think Bill Maxwell is the Greatest American Hero, not Ralph............. Who, for the last 20-30 years puts his life on the line every day for the betterment of mankind? Bill Ralph: Bullets bounce off him, he is protected. Not Bill. Bill eats bugs for breakfast. He laughs in the face of danger and he does not have any protection. Nothing to hide behind (except Ralph sometimes)............ Bill Maxwell: You have my vote!! So really you mean that the soldiers who fight, the police who protect, the firefighters that save are the greatest American heroes because they do it WITHOUT the superdude to back them up. Bill became MORE reckless with Ralph because he knew that he had a layer of protection too, you know. And haven't you seen Ralph's kids in class? Flak jackets ahoy!
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Post by MelMac on Mar 7, 2007 10:27:17 GMT -5
Will the real "Greatest American Hero" please stand up? In my opinion, and it is humble............I think Bill Maxwell is the Greatest American Hero, not Ralph............. Who, for the last 20-30 years puts his life on the line every day for the betterment of mankind? Bill Ralph: Bullets bounce off him, he is protected. Not Bill. Bill eats bugs for breakfast. He laughs in the face of danger and he does not have any protection. Nothing to hide behind (except Ralph sometimes)............ Bill Maxwell: You have my vote!! I feel both are for different reasons: Bill's you've already said. Ralph also is one because he's teaching kids no one really gives a chance to succeed and they do in their own way. If that's not a hero too, then I don't know what is.
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Post by jopierce on Mar 7, 2007 11:08:16 GMT -5
Hey Hinkley Homeys... get your own shrine!!!
Or in the words of Aretha herself... DON'T BLASPHEME IN HERE! DON'T BLASPHEME IN HERE!
Now, as far as who the Greatest American Hero is, I like to think of it in terms of a system of "checks and balances" which are the cornerstone of our nation, as well as the cornerstone of every 5th grader's civics class curriculum. Bill and Ralph were a team, neither of which would have done very well on their own.
Bill, as a super capable law enforcement professional would have had way too much power without Ralph on his heels. Ralph, however, would never have put the suit to use in it's full potential without Bill's guidance, wisdom, and badge 'em and bust 'em attitude.
Do I think Bill was THE Greatest American Hero?
It's a matter of definitions.
He certainly was the greatest (in the Book of Jo). Sure, he was more American than the flag. And certainly he was a hero many many many times over.... By that definition, he was A Great American Hero.
In fact, I want a Bill Maxwell statue erected in every town square from NY to Alaska!
But if we define the GAH as the one, as the wearer of the suit, and as the one with the powers, well, in a word... No...
[/tt][/size]
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Post by MelMac on Mar 7, 2007 11:13:19 GMT -5
^ My point exactly, just not in the way fitting a shrine.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Mar 7, 2007 12:12:34 GMT -5
Bill, as a super capable law enforcement professional would have had way too much power without Ralph on his heels. Ralph, however, would never have put the suit to use in it's full potential without Bill's guidance, wisdom, and badge 'em and bust 'em attitude. Really? I see that as checked and balanced too. Without Bill, Ralph would have lost his mind and the suit several times, so he was very persuasive in that regard. To counter though, Ralph was usually the one doing the experimenting and such...Bill's usually messed up the suit because he THOUGHT he was right. The definitions of each are obviously wrong because in most cases, a HERO does not WANT recognition...and we know that Bill did or he would not harp on gold stars, being in the magazine for the Bureau and such. Ralph is not one either because a hero does what is natural...and does not run and hide if it is bad...as Ralph usually did. As for statues, just something else for pigeons to deface. [/tt][/size][/quote] Again, THE greatest American hero is one that never knows that he or she is a hero. They never claim it, nor do they try to be one if they think they have to be or that they are being watched. To me, Ralph and Bill fit this mold to some degree, but it was forced on them, which both maximizes and minimizes the honor.
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Post by Lauren on Mar 7, 2007 19:27:42 GMT -5
Hey Hinkley Homeys... get your own shrine!!!
You're putting ideas in my head... that is NOT where they belong!
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Post by mmderdekea on Mar 8, 2007 0:36:02 GMT -5
Hello, all,
Well, it sure is easy to fall behind on this list! I guess I'll have to give up my job to keep on track with all the posts whipping right and left here!
I wanted to comment on Bill's lying. There are several different situations where he does that in the series.
One type of lying comes in Hog Wild, when he makes up some possible but untrue story about how the suit works, which causes a biker to jump off the roof of the barn and break his arm. This meant that Bill and the couple were left behind with the injured biker, whom Bill was able to overcome, thus effecting the rescue of Ralph and the saving of the town. This type of fantastical lying relies on Bill's incredible rapid brain and wit, and his cunning. It is a benefit to him and his partner and others that he has a mind which can fabricate on the moment in this way.
Another type of lying comes in all the time, in him having to write his cases up to hide the truth of how they were solved. Since he cannot write "My super suited best friend Ralph lifted the boat up out of the water, shaking the bad guys into the sea", he needs to make up appropriate and believable explanations which explain the facts instead. This is a marvelous gift Bill has to do so (occasionally with the help of Pam, as in "Bellybuster"), and thus ensure the secret of the suit and the green guys is always well guarded. Bill puts his own career on the line doing so, as Carlisle is eternally suspicious of his reports. This type of lying is a benefit to everyone.
Another kind of lying Bill did was when he manipulated Ralph into putting on a bad guy's shirt in "Good Samaritan". In my opinion, he had every right to do so, as Ralph was kind of being unnecessarily reluctant to catch the criminals, and, as Bill said, they were dangerous and had the capacity to harm innocent people. In this case, I think the criminals DID need to be caught, and due to Ralph's lack of initiative in that regard, the criminals actually came very, very close to escaping out of the country. So, I think Bill had justification in this regard. I think this is also the case with "This is the One", whereby finding the missile kept it from blowing up the president; if Ralph and Pam had not been finagled into using Bill's tickets, the whole world very well would have changed, and war would have ensued. Although we can sympathize with Pam wishing to have some solo time with Ralph, unfortunately, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility", as Spiderman learned upon the death of his uncle. With Ralph's suit comes a need to be ready to help save the world, no matter how much it would be nice to have a few days alone with his girlfriend. Bill's intuition that this missile HAD to be found was right. The world was in harrowing danger. He was justified in lying.
Regarding Bill lying to Ralph in Hit Car, this was where Bill was just plain wrong. He should have told Ralph the whole truth about pissing off Johnny and bringing him and his hit car to the school. This was a bad lie that could have caused a student or parent to be injured or killed. As a result, Bill realized that sheer selfish lying for no good reason was completely UNacceptable, and I don't believe we ever saw him do it again.
Last, regarding Bill lying in "El Diablo", I know that this is interpreted differently by different folks, as are many other interesting moments in the show. My personal take is that this was okay lying. I do not hold with those who see Bill solely as some greedy, avaricious, Harlan cheating fellow; that is simply not who Bill was presented as in the series as I saw his character. I think in this case the lying is really along the lines of altruism; wanting to use the suit for the benefit of his blind, financially struggling partner--whom he blatantly admit he loves in "Good Samaritan"--while knowing that using the suit for personal gain is not acceptable. My take is that Bill truly was wanting to find the gold to elevate the reputation of his previously disdained gold panning partner, and also, get him some money to help his life be easier. He worried that Ralph would not agree to help and so made up what I feel is the classic white lie to help Harlan. I consider this to be a valid use of the suit, and at the end, I think it's obvious all the other show characters agreed, as they all willingly gave their money to Harlan, too. As for Bill having a moment of weakness during the night, considering cutting Harlan out of the money somehow, and hating himself for it, that is, truly very human, very realistic, and very Maxwell. He would not have hated himself so much if his initial desire had been wholly in regard to helping out Harlan, which I believe it was.
So, for me, the lying of Maxwell was a vital and helpful, even life-saving component, except for the Hit Car, when it was inexcusable and almost caused a catastrophic tragedy.
Mona
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Post by jopierce on Mar 8, 2007 1:07:19 GMT -5
Mona! One of the true believers.... yes... come in and welcome to the shrine.
Let us begin with the blessing...
and the anointing...
Ok. I agree with you on most points here. No need to repeat. Plus, I do think that Bill is a good guy, despite his white lies and misrepresentations. There are a few cases where I think his vice is more akin to selfishness (even if, ironically, it is for a greater good and ultimately selfless).
The one thing that people have missed, which I think is interesting, is that bit in Sat on Sunset Blvd, where he's on the phone. When gets off the phone with his chief, he does a "That's it, take it or leave it!" act for people in the room. He was showboating there. It was in many ways a lie doing that, since he was lying about his ability to talk down a supervisor. But he lets Ralph know, immediately, that he was BSing when he rolls his eyes. It's an interesting scene, especially so early on in the show. He's lying, but he's admitting it to his new partner.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Mar 8, 2007 9:55:27 GMT -5
I agree with those interpretations overall, Mona. I agree that there are definite times that the lies needed to be used to protect them and the suit. No arguments from me...especially in THIS IS THE ONE. As for DIABLO, I think Bill was being greedy (not the whole time for sure, but I think a lot of it, he was considering taking the money and running--and using Ralph to do it. I think Ralph's sense of fair play and the hillbillies, plus seeing Harlan after the fact made him realize he could do it, but should not). I still think the lie was wrong, but he admitted it and did right. I see Bill as a good guy overall and the scene in THE HIT CAR proves that everyone messes up. Note that Bill usually only lies after that for good cause, the other exception being Josie's when he is BSing for no good reason. The one episode where it could go EITHER way is THE GOOD SAMARITAN. Yes, the bad guys needed to be caught, but Bill IS always on him for things that Bill could probably do himself. He could have covered the exit AND called for back-up aside from the suit to catch those firebugs in the opening scene and did not. And to me, it is not so much that Bill lied to Ralph about the vibe search, it was HOW he lied about it. If he really cared for Harlan, he should not make up stories like that...or else how will Ralph trust him in the future? Not to say that the others aren't liars too, but since this is the Bill shrine, I thought I would just focus on Bill.
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Post by mmderdekea on Mar 8, 2007 10:51:44 GMT -5
Hello, Jo, Thank you for letting me into the shrine. You obviously know I have built one myself in my house and sacrifice little scraps of paper upon which is written "Carlisle" to it daily. I am close to changing my name to Mona Pistola. Regarding "Sat Night", it seems a little harsh to call his last line "show-boating". Bill was "dealing from strength". With all the kids in the room, Bill needed to show himself as the man in charge, as someone who was controlling the situation, and NOT as someone desperately begging like a dog to be allowed to be an FBI agent without the lie detector test, which really, he was. I don't consider it show-boating, as much as simply a play-acting line to maintain his dignity, especially around Tony and the high school kids, whom this "tough Fed" likes. When he stood up and rolled his eyes to Ralph--totally endearing Bill to Ralph and the audience--we learn so much about Maxwell, and his openness to emotionally bare himself wholly to his partner. That was truly a masterful move by Culp/writers. I think this moment was written to boost Maxwell's character, to show his vulnerabilities and his humanity, to show Ralph learning about him and approving (notice Ralph's smile; he doesn't show any disapproval of Bill's play-acting). It was not designed to make Maxwell look bad. I think it succeeds fantastically. Mona
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Mar 8, 2007 11:00:37 GMT -5
Hello, Jo, Thank you for letting me into the shrine. You obviously know I have built one myself in my house and sacrifice little scraps of paper upon which is written "Carlisle" to it daily. I am close to changing my name to Mona Pistola. Regarding "Sat Night", it seems a little harsh to call his last line "show-boating". Bill was "dealing from strength". With all the kids in the room, Bill needed to show himself as the man in charge, as someone who was controlling the situation, and NOT as someone desperately begging like a dog to be allowed to be an FBI agent without the lie detector test, which really, he was. I don't consider it show-boating, as much as simply a play-acting line to maintain his dignity, especially around Tony and the high school kids, whom this "tough Fed" likes. When he stood up and rolled his eyes to Ralph--totally endearing Bill to Ralph and the audience--we learn so much about Maxwell, and his openness to emotionally bare himself wholly to his partner. That was truly a masterful move by Culp/writers. I think this moment was written to boost Maxwell's character, to show his vulnerabilities and his humanity, to show Ralph learning about him and approving (notice Ralph's smile; he doesn't show any disapproval of Bill's play-acting). It was not designed to make Maxwell look bad. I think it succeeds fantastically. Mona I agree that it is a great moment of bonding with Bill for both Ralph and the audience, but the kids could care LESS about Maxwell...in fact, most weren't listening. Why lie about being tough when they don't care if you are or not? I agree with Jo that it was showboating because it served no real purpose other than to set up that shot with Ralph and to show they were bonding better. Serge and Teresa didn't care; the kids didn't care; so why should Bill go to all that trouble? To me, it was one of the useless lies that Bill told. Usually they served a purpose, but here they didn't. After all, the class had already seen Ralph put Bill in his place at the beginning with TELLING Bill that he would handle the phones...this deception proved nothing except to try to restore what Bill thought was a crushed ego.
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Post by jopierce on Mar 8, 2007 11:20:31 GMT -5
Well, I love the scene, too.
What I find interesting is that Bill really does change a bit from the earlier episodes - Hit Car and Saturday, even the pilot, he really is a tough guy. Later, he sometimes is a little less so. Must be the writing. Compare him in Classical Gas to Hit Car. Both really good shows, but the character is written slightly differently.
And yes... everyone is welcome in the Shrine. Even HD... but that's only because we have the bouncers check his pockets before he leaves.
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Post by jopierce on Mar 8, 2007 11:23:29 GMT -5
I agree with Jo that it was showboating because it served no real purpose other than to set up that shot with Ralph and to show they were bonding better. Serge and Teresa didn't care; the kids didn't care; so why should Bill go to all that trouble? To me, it was one of the useless lies that Bill told. Usually they served a purpose, but here they didn't. After all, the class had already seen Ralph put Bill in his place at the beginning with TELLING Bill that he would handle the phones...this deception proved nothing except to try to restore what Bill thought was a crushed ego. I agree that he was trying to salvage his pride. But I also think this is probably one of the MOST IMPORTANT scenes in the whole series! It's way up there with getting the suit, or learning invisibility. Otherwise, there is no possible way for us to ever come to grips with HOW Bill can stay in the FBI and not take those tests.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Mar 8, 2007 11:25:38 GMT -5
I agree with Jo that it was showboating because it served no real purpose other than to set up that shot with Ralph and to show they were bonding better. Serge and Teresa didn't care; the kids didn't care; so why should Bill go to all that trouble? To me, it was one of the useless lies that Bill told. Usually they served a purpose, but here they didn't. After all, the class had already seen Ralph put Bill in his place at the beginning with TELLING Bill that he would handle the phones...this deception proved nothing except to try to restore what Bill thought was a crushed ego. I agree that he was trying to salvage his pride. But I also think this is probably one of the MOST IMPORTANT scenes in the whole series! It's way up there with getting the suit, or learning invisibility. Otherwise, there is no possible way for us to ever come to grips with HOW Bill can stay in the FBI and not take those tests.
I agree the scene was important, but the LIE was useless and forced. He could have just said that he was back in and didn't have to worry about the tests. The LIE was just there for comedy purposes and a connection between Bill and Ralph that would have been there anyway as time went on. I am talking about how the LIE was useless.
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Post by MelMac on Mar 8, 2007 13:32:56 GMT -5
I like Bill, but I agree that the "Saturday on Sunset Blvd." quip at the end was showboating. He says it very loudly so everyone can hear the "Take it or leave it" comment to try and sound like he's a tough agent, but no one listens to him regardless. The kids were more concerned about celebrating the rescue, and trying to keep Tony away from the burbon (or whatever alcohol it was he was trying to steal). It was unfortunately, a useless waste of a fib. Sure, it set up an inside joke between Bill and Ralph, but it was silly.
And, as far as lying, good intentions or not, it's not really justified unless it's life or death. All it does is make people (such as Ralph and Pam) grow suspicious of things in the long run. Who knows if Bill's really wanting to take them out to a restaurant or go on a scenario.
As HD said too... all three lie in the series (good example is Pam and Ralph's bit in "GAHeroine" about hiding the fact he already gave the suit away to Holly), but in most of these cases, I don't feel it justified. The worst case it "Diablo" when Bill does hide the fact of the mine from Ralph and the others (which, if you're hiding that, there can be allusions of greed, and I see that here. It's the theme of the ep) then when Ralph won't tell him where it is until he promises an equal share for all, relents.
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Post by mmderdekea on Mar 8, 2007 18:56:18 GMT -5
Well, I still think Bill's last phone line in Sat Night was wonderful, and showed him to be a decent man with the normal concerns for what others think, and a need to maintain a sense of strength, while sharing his vulnerability with Ralph. It's a great moment. It makes him human. We all know he has some feelings of insecurity so for anyone who enjoys/likes the character of Bill, this is a touching moment. I feel lucky they added it into the story. It really is one of the best things about the episode. Bill is endearing as a result and I think Ralph is closer to him for it. All around, a win-win story line, and Culp's eye-rolling is magnificent.
Jo is right that it does also help us see how Bill can not have to do the lie detector tests in the future. Mona
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Post by jopierce on Mar 8, 2007 19:03:11 GMT -5
Watched another episode today.... looking especially for Bill's "human-nesses."
Is that a word?
The Price Is Right.
Boy, do I not like this episode.
Now, part of it is that the whole "Yeeeeeaaaaah" hero worship when he met Cobb was painful to watch. Maybe it was kinda cute in a wierd way, but ... **shiver**
Not my favorite episode at all...
We all know that Bill has a thing for hero worship. Terry Winslow was a good example. So this was not a surprising episode. But what I didn't like was that Bill was goofy and dumbstruck - or is the word Gobsmacked? - in this episode. With Winslow, we know he's Bill's hero, but he shoots pool with him. He hangs out with him over pitchers of beer. They talk about old times and busting bad guys.... Bill is not like a silly school girl in love....
**Yeeeeeaaaaaah...**
Again, this is a case where this writer either didn't know Bill very well, or the trend seemed to be a slow slide from tough guy to silly oaf.
Boy, I didn't like this episode at all...
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Post by MST3Claye on Mar 8, 2007 19:11:40 GMT -5
Watched another episode today.... looking especially for Bill's "human-nesses."
Is that a word?
The Price Is Right.
Boy, do I not like this episode.
Now, part of it is that the whole "Yeeeeeaaaaah" hero worship when he met Cobb was painful to watch. Maybe it was kinda cute in a wierd way, but ... **shiver**
Not my favorite episode at all...
We all know that Bill has a thing for hero worship. Terry Winslow was a good example. So this was not a surprising episode. But what I didn't like was that Bill was goofy and dumbstruck - or is the word Gobsmacked? - in this episode. With Winslow, we know he's Bill's hero, but he shoots pool with him. He hangs out with him over pitchers of beer. They talk about old times and busting bad guys.... Bill is not like a silly school girl in love....
**Yeeeeeaaaaaah...**
Again, this is a case where this writer either didn't know Bill very well, or the trend seemed to be a slow slide from tough guy to silly oaf.
Boy, I didn't like this episode at all... Well, think about it this way. He's worked with Winslow and was under his leadership at one time. He has been able to know him and like him for who he is/was and morals and what not. As for Cobb, he's just a guy he sees on tv or at a ball game, like a celebrity. With that being said... Jo, how do you approach someone that you consider a hero in your life or someone that you look up to that you've known for a while as opposed to say... going to Thriller Con or any of the others and meeting Robert Culp? It's your basic meeting a celeb whether it's sports, television or movies. Atleast that's the impression I got out of it.
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Post by jopierce on Mar 8, 2007 19:33:21 GMT -5
Certainly, it is the celeb factor. Cobb was famous and all. But compare that to when Ralph meets the Lone Ranger. He is happy, and excited, and has a big smile on his face and walks around saying "I grew up on this guy..." But at least he could get the words out of his mouth.
What bothers me about the Price is Right is that they made my Billy Boy sound more like a Billy Goat...
**Yeeeeaaaaaahhhhhh**
As for meeting Culp? It'll never happen. Unless he's reading this board and looks ME up, I will not be going to see him....
Restraining orders, you know?
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Post by MyTatuo on Mar 8, 2007 19:43:15 GMT -5
Watched another episode today.... looking especially for Bill's "human-nesses."
Is that a word?
The Price Is Right.
Boy, do I not like this episode.
Now, part of it is that the whole "Yeeeeeaaaaah" hero worship when he met Cobb was painful to watch. Maybe it was kinda cute in a wierd way, but ... **shiver**
Not my favorite episode at all...
We all know that Bill has a thing for hero worship. Terry Winslow was a good example. So this was not a surprising episode. But what I didn't like was that Bill was goofy and dumbstruck - or is the word Gobsmacked? - in this episode. With Winslow, we know he's Bill's hero, but he shoots pool with him. He hangs out with him over pitchers of beer. They talk about old times and busting bad guys.... Bill is not like a silly school girl in love....
**Yeeeeeaaaaaah...**
Again, this is a case where this writer either didn't know Bill very well, or the trend seemed to be a slow slide from tough guy to silly oaf.
Boy, I didn't like this episode at all... Well, think about it this way. He's worked with Winslow and was under his leadership at one time. He has been able to know him and like him for who he is/was and morals and what not. As for Cobb, he's just a guy he sees on tv or at a ball game, like a celebrity. With that being said... Jo, how do you approach someone that you consider a hero in your life or someone that you look up to that you've known for a while as opposed to say... going to Thriller Con or any of the others and meeting Robert Culp? It's your basic meeting a celeb whether it's sports, television or movies. Atleast that's the impression I got out of it. I think you're both right, but that it simply shows Maxwell as more human. The fact that he can initially be taken in by Hero Worship (Winslow) or go ga-ga over a celeb (Cobb), but when they fall from grace, can still overcome that and bust 'em, makes it all the more reason to love Maxwell. Although it's easy to say Maxwell became more cartoonish as the series progressed, I like to think that started as Mr Tough-As-Nails, never let your guard down, especially in front of this surfer bum partner he gets stuck with, but as time went on, he could let his defenses down and be more like his natural self (at least how he is with friends).
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