dolfyn
Agent
As good as me.
Posts: 342
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Post by dolfyn on Dec 26, 2008 11:15:40 GMT -5
I still can't believe the on-going comments about me "spoiling" things... I'm not sure whose comments you're referring to specifically, but just to be clear about where I was coming from so there's no misunderstanding, I was only contributing my suggestion to the general conversation about spoilers & "censorship" on this board. Nothing more. Feel the love. dolfyn.
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 26, 2008 14:52:03 GMT -5
I feel it, Dolfyn! Great shots with Katt! Mona
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Post by jopierce on Dec 27, 2008 14:18:22 GMT -5
I wasn't sure whether or not to add my 2 cents worth on the spoiler topic... But here goes.
My feeling is that the comics are published and for sale. It should therefore be fair game to talk about them.
***
Consider this scenario:
I am a new member of this site. I just bought GAH Season 1 DVD, and love it.
I start looking around this site, and read a thread where someone talks about Ralph getting shot in DVS. Then I see the photo captures of them in the weiner wagon with the space ship.
For that new member, that was a major spoiler... Should that prohibit us from talking about the episode?
Or maybe this new member won't buy the other DVDs because they are afraid of clowns, and the prospects of seeing Ralph dressed as a clown has completely turned them off...
Or maybe someone's own personal opinion that season III was the worst of the three will mean they won't buy that season...
***
If we can't talk about the show, the comics, or whatever without spoilers, probably 90% of this site should have spoiler tags.
Some may say, "Well, let's give everyone some time to get the comics before we mention anything inside them."
Ok. So, what's the time limit? A week? A month? A year? Why should one's person's ability to buy them the day they come out weigh more than someone else having to wait a month or two?
I won't have the money to buy comic books until my son starts reading them himself, so my vote would be no spoilers at all, for at least 7 more years...
Edit: That was sarcasm, by the way.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2008 15:47:41 GMT -5
OK, I will put in my two cents here. When Mona posted her "brief" (i.e. what I would normally type) synopsis, her "spoiler tag" was this: No real spoilers, per se--anyway, everyone knows the story!--but I am mentioning some story specifics: This unfortunately is vague in its premise, and, given that the story specifics mentioned afterward are new to the "GAH" lore, it does contradict the "No real spoilers" comment. It also - in my opinion - went into great detail about the changes. The second SPOILERS comment (all caps, glowing text) was added by greenguy, our admin, who can also verify this. But, I'm going to counter Jo here with the DVDs versus the comic. The DVDs are the show from 1981-1984, around for over 24 years. Most people know what's going on with that storyline, such as Macke being there, the clowns/circus, the beast, etc. You can't really spoil those stories because they've been around for so long that they're already spoiled - and not just here too, but places such as TV Shrine and even the fan boards that are connected to "GAH." Most people know that part of the history of "The Greatest American Hero." However, changes that are in the comic such as "John Plame" being Bill's partner instead of Macke, Gabriel's Army with the eagles, etc. are new spoilers to the "GAH" universe. It's similar to the TV series "Doctor Who" - most people know the basics of the show ever since it first started in the 1960s (TARDIS, Doctor, companion), yet they still like to be unspoiled with the current run (i.e. new monsters, locations, if the Master will/will not return, etc.). Therefore, Outpost Gallifrey has their own spoiler tags so everyone can be happy. ************************* The comic itself has been around now for just over a week, and for many, they've not been able to get the comic (mostly it's sold out everywhere to where they're already on the variant silver ones) and wanted to find out what was all new by reading the comic themselves without being spoiled on the new stuff. Here, I don't think the issue should be about whether or not there should be spoilers included in reviews, because there will be those who will always spoil in their reviews (and not just "GAH," but "Sparks," "Mythology Wars," etc.) The issue here is the accessibility of those spoilers to those who do and don't want to be spoiled. We can't change what happened here, but we can learn from it and come to a detente. I think that the spoilers tag would allow both sides of the issue to be happy - those who want to be spoiled could click on the button and be spoiled on the specific details to their hearts content (i.e. Plame), while those who do not want to be spoiled can go "Whatever" to the spoiler button and move on to the next post without having to scroll down a lot of text to find the next avatar.
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Post by Ms Boku on Dec 27, 2008 15:59:51 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree. There should be a spoiler tag, or cut to or whatever it's called. They do it on live journal for Doctor Who. I don't want to know what's going on but sometimes it's right there and Sometimes, (and I know this from personal exp) you read a review and it ruins it. A friend of mine would tell me the ends of books and I couldn't read the books after that. I yelled at her all the time for doing it. I may not comment on everything but I am interested to hear what people say here. Personally, if I had not read the comic, I would have been peeved. Sometimes you keep reading because they might give an opinion but no spoilers. EX- I mentioned how Great the Sparks for itunes looked but for those who haven't read it, I didn't give it away. I don't want to ruin the experience for them. Even when Sparks came out, I only mentioned 1 inappropriate pic (so it's not a kids comic) but I didn't give away the plot. Don't take this as an attack. It's just the way I feel in general. We should get a spoiler tag (with directions for those who don't know how to use the function.) If we can't get one then just create a spoiler thread for spoilers only! It would be beneficial all around.
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Post by Ms Boku on Dec 27, 2008 16:04:17 GMT -5
Believe me if ANYONE told me about the Christmas Special for Doctor Who before I saw it I would have been really PO'd. I don't click on spoilers until after I've seen.
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 27, 2008 16:34:28 GMT -5
Again, ONE LAST TIME: SOMEONE tell me how my "spoilers" as I summarized them in a previous email, could cause ANYONE to feel the whole story, or even PART of the story, THAT EVERYONE KNOWS FRONT AND BACK, was ruined.
If folks want to freak out about this, that is their personal option. I'm hardly computer literate on sites like this and have no clue how to use "spoiler" tags, anyway. I can barely get things "quoted" as I like them to be. Besides, I did not spoil anything for anyone, except folks who like creating drama and trauma when it's simply not necessary. So, instead of discussing the comic, the good and the bad, the plot lines and characterizations, as Jo, wrote, we have to wait how long for folks to do their own reading before opening up the conversation?
How about those who have not read it yet, DON'T READ THIS THREAD, so others who have, CAN discuss the comic book? Doesn't that make sense? Or, we could open up a new thread for that--a thread designed to discuss the comic book plot, so if you haven't read the comic and will cry if you read of the story before you do, DO NOT READ THAT THREAD. Hello! Instead of making the proverbial mountain out of a molehill, why not simply problem solve solutions like this? I think I'll go do that.
Thank you, Jo, for a lucid discussion of his topic.
Mona
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2008 16:47:22 GMT -5
Mona, In your review you gave a lot of spoilers (to access, click on the dateline): [a href=" "] [/a] That said, your spoiler tag was not clear: No real spoilers, per se--anyway, everyone knows the story!--but I am mentioning some story specifics: Yes, people know the story; however, when you went on with your review, the "story specifics" you gave were new ones to what we originally knew about "GAH." You later gave a list of things in the comic book - some can be seen as spoilers, others common knowledge. My comments are in bold and green after your list: - John Plame on motorcycle killed - SPOILER to original "GAH" - Macke in the original pilot driving the dune buggy)
- Bill, cell phone message - This one was spoiled in the ashcan, so fair to say common knowledge; HOWEVER - not everyone got the ashcan or knew Cannell had it available to upload.
- School guy Derek - SPOILER - New character, as Ray and Knight were originally in the story
- Bill bracelet, John's found in dirt.Can be seen by an astute eye in ashcan on Bill's wrist, however, becomes a SPOILER when mentioned a similar one being found by Bill in the actual comic
- Tony gets into trouble. This is not a spoiler - so far only one that really has not been
- Appliances blow up. SPOILER - nothing blows up in the original pilot. Engine died in the original pilot, but does begin to work again.
- Odd death of bad guy. - SPOILER - You went into further detail in this post:
I am leery about recurring Gabriel's Army, but am willing to see how it plays out. Spraying someone with blood and having hybrid eagles attack and eat them is not really the best way for me to introduce them. I found that extremely goofy--are they planning on releasing hybrid eagles on people, spraying them with blood first? Oookay....Plus, it's odd to have it be supposedly realistic for this time and then to add something still quite fantastical and not really "real."
- Same meeting of aliens - This is not a spoiler
[/color] [/li][/ul] That's a few spoilers there. As far as a spoiler tag, it would be places in the tag bar where we find things such as bold, italics, underline, etc. You'd just have to click on the toggle that says "Spoilers" and it'd put in a Code with the backslash. You just type in between the two buttons.
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Post by jopierce on Dec 27, 2008 17:44:16 GMT -5
But, I'm going to counter Jo here with the DVDs versus the comic. The DVDs are the show from 1981-1984, around for over 24 years.... You've missed my point completely. I apologize if the way I brought it up was in a slightly playful (sarcastic) way, as I was trying to be diplomatic. So let me once again try to explain. My points: At what point, exactly, is it ok to discuss these details? One week? One month? One year? Who decides? Is 24 years the magic cut off year? And because some people haven't read the comic yet, does that mean the comics are off limits for discussion? Do we all have to report in and let people know when we all read the comics, so we know when the coast is clear? I won't be reading for some time. Should I then dictate that you can't discuss it for... what... 7 years? If this is the case - that some people haven't read yet - it is their decision to decide what to read and not to read on this board. It's not like someone having a conversation and telling you the ending. It's hard to press "back page" in a face to face conversation. Each and every one here reads with a choice as to what to read, and what to skip. If you haven't read the comics yet, and you are the type of person who gets upset by spoilers, then don't read the thread called "Comic book update." Especially don't read it once the comic has been on sale. That makes sense to me. When I read fanfiction, I sometimes read the reviews beforehand, to know if it's a well liked story. I expect some spoilers. I have a choice to not read them beforehand. But I won't get upset about reviewers for leaving spoilers in a review simply because I don't think it should be there.... Next point: At what point is a detail a spoiler? You say motorcycle vs dune buggy is a spoiler? Really? REALLY? I call them details. I call it a very, very minor detail . I would not call it a spoiler. That's like "spoiling" that Bill wore a blue shirt vs a red shirt... I call it a minor detail, and complaining about it here, and going after a member over it, is completely ridiculous. And to be honest, it smells of witch hunt. And that to me is the most disturbing part of this whole recent exchange. Marci gave some information that she had from another site - that the first 3 comics are from the original, but then there will be new episodes... What if this information was information that people didn't want to hear? Would you call it a spoiler? Or insider information? Why aren't we complaining about what Marci said here? (No offense Marci. Just using it as an example...) Or the ashcan that was released. Filled with potential spoilers, or potential details, depending on how you look at it. If you didn't want to look and know, don't look at that ashcan! Simple. If GG and mods want a spoiler bar, fine. Put it in. I have spoiler bars on my boards, and they are not hard to work. But I don't even know if that's what bothering me here. I personally find nitpicking over Mona's details in her posts as distasteful, because they are minor details...
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Post by Ms Boku on Dec 27, 2008 17:50:04 GMT -5
None taken. I agree though. And I like the idea of a spoiler bar.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 27, 2008 18:26:31 GMT -5
OK, If I may: You've missed my point completely. I apologize if the way I brought it up was in a slightly playful (sarcastic) way, as I was trying to be diplomatic. So let me once again try to explain. My points: At what point, exactly, is it ok to discuss these details? One week? One month? One year? I would say that at least two weeks as far as detailed spoilers. The issue in question was about a week after it was released, and as most people know, it's currently sold out, so most of us have no access to it yet. I'm not sure what you mean by "24 years" being a cut off year. In this case, I was discerning the difference between "spoiling" a 24 year old TV show which people know inside and out versus the new comic which everyone - Katt, SJC, etc. had said there were going to be expansions and new things added to it. I see no problem in discussing the comic as far as quality of the art, giving out teasers without specifics etc., but as I've read from reviews by people such as Marci and butterfingers, there is a way to discuss the comic without going into specifics. Example, my opinion only - reading the above's reviews left me wanting more, whereas Mona's in depth analysis left me questioning if I should bother paying the money if I'm going to find out right away. Again, this issue here is NOT discussing the comic in general, but hiding specific detailed spoilers in regard to the comic for those who don't want to be spoiled - things that were not there in the original run. This is why I mentioned "Doctor Who" as an example - to this day they hide spoilers about upcoming episodes from those who wish to not find out what's going to happen. And, there is a case in example for "Doctor Who" that is similar to this case - The stories that included "Family of Blood" were based on a Seventh Doctor book. There were similar things, but differences between the two. They still kept the changes hidden from the fans who wished to not be spoiled. And, putting in a spoiler tab would help those who don't want to be spoiled traverse the threads easier. It would instead allow those who wish to skip that information to do it quickly and not have to risk playing Russian Roulette (or scrolling until you think you are clear (and might not be), but landing on a spoiler). Two things to take into consideration here: 1. Going by the literal meaning of this thread, this thread was in fact started to announce the release of the "GAH" comic and future releases. It was not originally intended to discuss the comic as read by fans if we go by the literal term. So, the converse to your question is if people wanted to discuss the comic, shouldn't there have been a thread devoted to "Comic Book Discussion - possible spoilers" as Mona's put up instead of just "news?" 2. I was the first to read the post, and as I've mentioned above, the spoiler tag that was put in there by Mona was not clear- and it ended up IMHO being contradictory, as there were in fact spoilers to this comic versus the original "GAH" series. Greenguy chose to put in a glowing "SPOILERS" tag so people could know there were spoilers to in addition to those known by those who know the pilot inside and out. In my case (I will not speak for the others), I was more upset because I felt mislead by Mona's spoilers tag saying there were "No real spoilers per se... but I will mention story specifics." Unfortunately, the specifics mentioned were spoilers IMHO. As I said too, spoilers are inevitable, but there are ways around not spoiling things but still talk about the comic. Please read the posting above yours. It's not motorcycle vs. dune buggy - it's mentioning that John Plame is Bill's partner - a young black man, versus John Macke (pilot - an adult black male), which IS a new spoiler. This was my point, as it's not mentioned in the ashcan. The deal with the meaning of the wristbands is a spoiler, as is (especially) the man dying because he's doused with blood and attacked by eagles is a spoiler. None of these are in the original "GAH" story, or the ashcan. And, to make this crystal clear, I am not "witch hunting" anyone - nor going after any one person. Never have, never will - period. This was always an issue of whether or not we should hide spoilers in the future. Since Mona has made her issues with me public, I can say this. Because I felt the comments made were spoilers (because they gave out new things that were not in the ashcan or part of the original pilot) I made a request to Mona in PM to next time to not spoil the comic, as some of us had not gotten the comic and did not want to be spoiled. In response, I rather rudely told a few things about myself, and to be left alone. Point is, my request was as a moderator, always has been always will be - it was not nor ever would be personal, and it's a shame that I must even mention what I said in PM in public in order to defend myself. And rest assured any concerns I have with a member I will address in private. Actually, there is a mistake in this line of thought. The information Marci touted was already released as a press release by Katt, SJC and company via YouTube and later on Catastrophic Comics. They (SJC and company) have said since the announcement that the first three comics were to be a rethought of the original pilot and the latter three new stories. She didn't know about it until it was released by them. Trust me, if Marci or butterfingers - who was really gung ho about the release, went into detail as Mona did in their review, I'd ask them - as I did Mona - in PM to please not post up spoilers next time for the same reason. I would do it even to our Admin. As I've mentioned in a previous post, I've listed things that were commented on that were not spoilers because of the ashcan or common "GAH" knowledge. Things such as Plame's tie to Bill, the significance of the yellow bracelet Bill wears (the fact he wears one is in there, but not meaning) and the eagle were spoilers NOT in the ashcan that were told here. Unfortunately, this has been blown out of proportion because of things said in PM that have been brought on board. And, given that I have seen reviews of the comics (I'm including "Sparks") without going into great detail, I just felt that a spoiler bar needed to be put in for the future. We cannot change the past - but we can help with the future. I hope I have explained things better. If not, feel free to PM me.
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Post by Lauren on Dec 27, 2008 20:43:19 GMT -5
I just want my darn comic to read for myself.
Perhaps we should all take a gander at, say, how different musicians forums handle newly released albums as far as spoilers go?
My issue was that, okay I know the story, I know about what I'll be reading but (other than the ashcan) didn't know what changes would be made...
*sigh*
I'm stepping out of this thread again, until I get my comic.
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Post by jopierce on Dec 27, 2008 22:01:52 GMT -5
I would say that at least two weeks as far as detailed spoilers. The issue in question was about a week after it was released, and as most people know, it's currently sold out, so most of us have no access to it yet. Oh. So two weeks is ok? Not two and a half? Not three? Hmmmm. Well, as I said, if this comic is discussed anytime, anywhere on this board before the year 2015, it will be a big spoiler for me. I will be completely disappointed. Please, people, do not discuss this comic publically until 2015. Ok? Do not tell me anything about it. I don't want to know anything about the characters, the colors, how long it is, nothing... If you feel you need to discuss it, please carry that conversation out in PM. That's what it's there for. I'm like Lauren... walking away from this thread. Mona was right on one matter... sometimes this BS does drive people away from this forum. I came back after a while. Now I am taking another break.
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dolfyn
Agent
As good as me.
Posts: 342
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Post by dolfyn on Dec 28, 2008 4:21:49 GMT -5
I feel it, Dolfyn! Great shots with Katt! Mona Thanks! He's a lovely guy. I hope to meet him again some day. There seems to be a lot of emotion on both sides of the spoiler argument, & I don't want to take sides because I'm fairly new here & just want to get along with everyone. But I'll just mention that with other forums that I'm a member of, there are members from a number of different countries. When there's a new release of some sort (say a movie, for example), it is often released on different dates in the various countries, sometimes even several months apart. Because of this, there are often 2 threads created for a new release; one labelled as spoiler-free, & the other labelled as containing spoilers or full disclosure. So maybe this could be a solution if the spoiler-tag option isn't possible. Therefore, there could be discussion on speculation about upcoming projects, release dates, trailers/teasers, etc in the spoiler-free thread; & there could be discussion about the details of the released project in the spoiler thread. Then everybody's happy. ;D That said, I have no idea how or when I'll get my hands on these TGAH comics! Feel the love. dolfyn.
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Post by Ms Boku on Dec 28, 2008 9:28:25 GMT -5
Well, I know that Wm has just signed about 600 copies for the collectors paradise on the catastrophic bd. So, I imagine that as soon as they get them you can even order from there.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 28, 2008 10:27:48 GMT -5
I'm like Lauren... walking away from this thread. Mona was right on one matter... sometimes this BS does drive people away from this forum. I came back after a while. Now I am taking another break. Jo, I am sorry you feel this way. However, I also feel that my opinion is being read piecemeal and not as a whole. As I've said before, we can't change the past - the first comic has been, in some people's POV (not just mine) spoiled. While there was a warning tag given initially, the spoiler tag given by Mona (which I have quoted) was vague. Greenguy did write the all caps, glowing spoiler to help alert others who hadn't read that post initially. My comments and opinion have been regarding future comic books only. In no way am I condoning censorship, as spoilers will happen ultimately. If the admin, the other mods or I did condone it, the comments in question would've been removed long before this discussion came to fruition and that'd been the end of it. That said, the question is how they are displayed. IMHO, a spoiler bar would be win-win for everyone in the future, because it would still allow spoilers on the board, but they would be hidden unless clicked upon so those who don't want to know - and can get the comic - don't have to read it. It also shortens the distance that has to be scrolled to avoid spoilers. Regardless, my comments have always been my opinion, never "this is what will happen." When I mentioned the two weeks, that was what I felt would be a reasonable time to let people purchase the comic and read it. That said, I don't make the final decision - that belongs to our admin. The one issue I do find sad is that again, people's opinions are considered right or wrong by others (I will include myself in this scenario). I also understand your opinion and where you're coming from - and will always respect it, but also can disagree. The same goes true for everyone on this board - though I have highly disagreed with many, including those whom I consider as friends. The one thing I do disagree with - and will continue to disagree with, is the comment that this "smells of a witch hunt." I would've discussed this issue no matter who it was - up to and including the admin and if they were here, Katt, Folino, SJC, Culp, Connie, Pare, etc. IMHO though, I just do not feel that it would've been taken as though it was personal as some have here. But one thing is clear - the issue about spoilers for the future comics needed to be discussed. We have seen both sides of the situation, and hopefully we'll find a middle ground where everyone can be happy. With this, I will refrain from further discussion and walk away from this thread.
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 28, 2008 14:03:53 GMT -5
Well, congratulations, folks, you chased Jo away, again. Well done! Due to me writing a few stupid little details on a COMIC BOOK, you lost one of the wittiest, friendliest, most creative and rational members of this list. Since she's mostly a Culp/Maxwell fan, I'm sure you must all be proud of yourselves. What's more important, after all, knowing a man is riding a motorcycle or that appliances blow up OR being so aggressive about nothing you lost Jo as a member? Obviously, most of you chose the latter option. This list should be ashamed of itself.
Mona
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dolfyn
Agent
As good as me.
Posts: 342
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Post by dolfyn on Dec 28, 2008 19:23:45 GMT -5
I know I'm pretty new here, but I just don't get this Culp-fan versus Katt-fan rivalry that seems to be going on here! It seems like being a fan of one means that there's a need to downplay the talents of the other one, to elevate the preferred actor/character. It's weird! I bet the actors themselves would find it a bit silly, too. Personally, I'm more of a Katt-fan, but I do absolutely love Culp's performance in TGAH; he's brilliant as Maxwell. In fact, both actors are so wonderful in their roles that their chemistry created a lot of the magic that is TGAH, hence my love of the show. As mutual fans of the show, can't everyone get along, no matter which of the leads they personally prefer? Feel the love (for TGAH & all its leads). dolfyn.
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Post by MissDavidson on Dec 28, 2008 20:25:25 GMT -5
Well, congratulations, folks, you chased Jo away, again. Well done! Due to me writing a few stupid little details on a COMIC BOOK, you lost one of the wittiest, friendliest, most creative and rational members of this list. Since she's mostly a Culp/Maxwell fan, I'm sure you must all be proud of yourselves. What's more important, after all, knowing a man is riding a motorcycle or that appliances blow up OR being so aggressive about nothing you lost Jo as a member? Obviously, most of you chose the latter option. This list should be ashamed of itself. Mona You cannot blame the whole board for the problem here. And while I've bit my tongue for the most part, I've done it long enough. You seem so adamant on blaming everyone else for things that went on, you also have a part in it. You're quite unpleasant. I **am not** blaming you solely for the problems here, let me make that clear. But you need to take responsibility for your own actions. Everyone does. And this blaming every single argument, every single thing that goes wrong here on supposed "Bill-haters/Culp-haters", give it a rest. It's getting old. DOLFYN: I've tried to get that same point across, to no avail. The leads (I won't put their names down; if I put one name in front of another, I could be accused of favoritism). . .The three lead actors of the show worked as a team, as their characters and as actors. They wouldn't want us fighting. But. . . You're absolutely right. AND TO EVERYONE ELSE: You're arguing over spoilers. For goodness sake, what does it hurt to have spoiler bars or a separate spoiler thread? But no. That's not the opinion of every single person, so it's not do-able. Can't you all come to some sort of agreement without tearing each other down? I personally have nothing to be ashamed of. You know, I joined this board a while back because I loved "The Greatest American Hero", and wanted to talk to others who loved the show just as much as I did. But this board has turned into a mine-field. The fighting is ruining all the good stuff about the show. I can't stand this anymore.
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Post by Lauren on Dec 28, 2008 20:25:28 GMT -5
Thank you, dolfyn and MissDavidson. This whole argument is ridiculous.
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