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Post by MelMac on Sept 2, 2006 15:32:14 GMT -5
Ok, I have another question about this episode.
It's the scene where Ralph is trying his card trick in the car.
Pam picks a card out of Ralph's deck. She shows it to Bill. Then Ralph picks the card out of the deck. She is amazed that he picked the right card, but then Bill says that he had seen another card.
How many of you think that Bill was messing with Ralph and Pam's heads? Maybe Ralph did get it right, but Bill, being Bill, just wanted to be a major spoilsport. It is classic Bill.
Anyone else ever see it that way, or is it just me? Bill probably was messing with their minds, as I doubt he saw the card. And, he wonders when Ralph's going to do the raw eggs in the glove compartment trick? Sarcasm, yes... but risky if you're messing up card tricks or playing with people's minds.
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Post by billswoman on Sept 2, 2006 20:32:09 GMT -5
I see it as Pam simply humoring Ralph, to shut him up with the tricks. I think Bill really saw it and remembered it (the second time around, since the first time he spouts off what it is). Pam adds, I know it was red!
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Post by MelMac on Sept 4, 2006 21:32:36 GMT -5
The whole bit with the cards reminds me of when I had to do a how to speech on magic and do the tricks. One was the floating raw egg trick in water with magic dust... but everyone knew it was the same stuff that seperately will either poison you or explode in your face. One trick I still don't get though is how they did is the miracle of the straps. I know how they must've done it for filming, but seemed to me to be way too fast for it to be real. I also like how they do the lights in the background hallways (the revolving ones). It looks as though they also use blacklight given how the suit emblem glows. Pretty cool effect for the suit as well.
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Post by MelMac on Sept 14, 2006 10:47:32 GMT -5
I think something else that bugs me about the ep is the "Polly Waddle Doodle all the day" bit. The piano shouldn't have started from where Bill sings the song the second time, it should've started at the beginning... I think.
Also, how did Ralph get the mask off Carlini when he throws the man? It cuts to Ralph holding the mask, but he threw Carlini the traditional way (grabbing his collar and shoulder and throw the person). It also looked like the mask didn't fall off in the throw, so it's pretty confusing.
I'd like to have see Carlini be in there more instead of Stoppard as far as the attacks and such. Given the mask, they could've had Carlini at least one other time (not inc. Roberts' attack) go after Ralph or one of the others before the show and attack them. And, he could've set up one of the magicians to take the fall. Or, they could've done a suspense bit instead and shown the scene where Toby and Dawn get attacked by Carlini, given Dawn mentions she was hit over the head and Toby it's assumed the same happened.
(Then again, they might've tried to keep violence at a minimum in an attempt to keep the series on. "The Wild Wild West" was cancelled ironically because it was considered too violent. Same with the very good "Mystic Knights of Tir Na Nog," which was far less violent than it's sister series on Fox: "Power Rangers.")
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Sept 14, 2006 15:27:08 GMT -5
I think something else that bugs me about the ep is the "Polly Waddle Doodle all the day" bit. The piano shouldn't have started from where Bill sings the song the second time, it should've started at the beginning... I think. Also, how did Ralph get the mask off Carlini when he throws the man? It cuts to Ralph holding the mask, but he threw Carlini the traditional way (grabbing his collar and shoulder and throw the person). It also looked like the mask didn't fall off in the throw, so it's pretty confusing. I'd like to have see Carlini be in there more instead of Stoppard as far as the attacks and such. Given the mask, they could've had Carlini at least one other time (not inc. Roberts' attack) go after Ralph or one of the others before the show and attack them. And, he could've set up one of the magicians to take the fall. Or, they could've done a suspense bit instead and shown the scene where Toby and Dawn get attacked by Carlini, given Dawn mentions she was hit over the head and Toby it's assumed the same happened. (Then again, they might've tried to keep violence at a minimum in an attempt to keep the series on. "The Wild Wild West" was cancelled ironically because it was considered too violent. Same with the very good "Mystic Knights of Tir Na Nog," which was far less violent than it's sister series on Fox: "Power Rangers.") I think the piano played the second time because Bill was repeating himself and that is why it started playing...or just for the fun of it. I think it was well done. As for the mask, if you look, it does look like a collar grab for Carlini except that Ralph's hand is too high, so he has to be grabbing something higher...his face. I think that was incredibly well done for the third season. And I think the reason they left Carlini until the end because Lupo set up the episode as a murder mystery...and that left Stoppard...until he admitted that Carlini was alive. It was too easy to know that from the start, but it was well written in that aspect. I think having Carlini earlier would have ruined the attempts of Ralph in the suit doing tricks later. As for Toby being hit on the head...I don't know. I think he was doing his stunt and Dawn got hit on the head before he could get free and Carlini removed the trick so he would die instead. In Ralph's holograph, Toby is very much alive and panicking.
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Post by MelMac on Sept 14, 2006 20:19:18 GMT -5
Yes, Toby was alive, was to the end of the story, 'cept he was in the hospital. I guess too it could be that he was given the same treatment that Ralph was and the trick to escape (which I have a rough idea how it's done), and then did the slow torture with the burning candle. You're right too about Carlini too on second thought, but I'd like to have seen more of Blachart then really trying to escape Pam and Bill, such as shoving them into a wall as he runs by or something. (sorry, I got a dumb character walk today at auditions, so I'm in the Halloween mood. I'm probably going to still be a certain rooster. )
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Sept 14, 2006 20:23:17 GMT -5
Yes, Toby was alive, was to the end of the story, 'cept he was in the hospital. I guess too it could be that he was given the same treatment that Ralph was and the trick to escape (which I have a rough idea how it's done), and then did the slow torture with the burning candle. You're right too about Carlini too on second thought, but I'd like to have seen more of Blachart then really trying to escape Pam and Bill, such as shoving them into a wall as he runs by or something. (sorry, I got a dumb character walk today at auditions, so I'm in the Halloween mood. I'm probably going to still be a certain rooster. ) No, I know Toby was alive and in the hospital, but you implied that he was unconscious when Carlini tried to kill him. But if you look when Ralph gets the holograph, Toby is AWAKE!
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Post by MelMac on Sept 14, 2006 20:34:08 GMT -5
I know, but it didn't imply that, but the way you wrote it was that he was alive and panicking. I misread it as you implying he was dead then, not conscious and panicking. He only fainted when he got to the point of the rope almost completely gone. (I told you, I had a dumb character walk today at auditions. Lame enough I'm misreading things). Also, this is just a crazy idea too, it's possible given the way Ralph rolls over Tony to get him out from under the spikes could be the reason why he was in intensive care/hospital. He grabs Tony's left arm and hip when he rolls Toby. He could've accidentally dislocated Toby's shoulder or broke it with the suit's stregnth in his haste. (but, I'd rather have a dislocated shoulder, torn rotater cuff over being dead.)
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Post by jopierce on Sept 14, 2006 20:35:51 GMT -5
Carlini!!!!
You know I had to. Even if in nothing but a whisper...
What? You calling me a criminal?[/tt]
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Post by MelMac on Sept 15, 2006 22:14:05 GMT -5
Carlini!!!! You know I had to. Even if in nothing but a whisper...
What? You calling me a criminal? [/tt][/quote] No, but at the rate you keep jumping out [glow=red,2,300]"CARLINI!"[/glow]I'm going to have it ingrained in my head to the point that I'm going to shout it out at my fun job.
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Post by billswoman on Dec 29, 2006 17:22:22 GMT -5
Hey, I realized something... I always thought that since Bill and Ralph were thrown together with the suit, that Ralph helped Bill on all of his cases.
In this ep, Bill said it had been a year since Carlini died, and he was the investigating agent.
Didn't Bill and Ralph know one another a year before this episode? It's third season, after all. Wouldn't Ralph have known about the case? Esp. since he's so into the "magician" world, like with Tony Roberts.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 29, 2006 18:01:49 GMT -5
I don't know, as it's possible Bill was on the case while Ralph and Pam were away on vacation. Or, it could be only a couple of months between something say like "Train of Thought" and "Carlini." That's the problem with TV, you don't know exactly how much time has passed. I will say though, at least this show attempts to give a timeframe where as soaps, particularly "Passions" have them going for weeks in the same outfit for one day. Very annoying.
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Post by billswoman on Dec 29, 2006 18:39:50 GMT -5
The date on the letter to Bill says October 28, 1982. What's the date in (for example) "Now You See It," that they keep saying over and over? I think it's January 1982, isn't it? So you may be right, MelMac.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 29, 2006 20:30:54 GMT -5
I like how silly the "Miracle of the straps" is. Anyone would know the truth as far as TV, and it is a bit silly for a trick if they're going to show Carlini's biggest tricks. Since it's a guess the water torture trick and the Cremation one were two of Carlini's biggest ones, what was the third? I sure hope not trick.
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Post by billswoman on Dec 29, 2006 21:58:06 GMT -5
Make that Toby Roberts, btw.
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Post by MelMac on Dec 29, 2006 22:15:00 GMT -5
Make that Toby Roberts, btw. Huh? Then again the third trick could've been the spikes one where Roberts is securely fastened to the table, Carlini lights the candle to burn the rope, and Roberts passes out from fear just before Ralph enters in and rescues him. BTW, I did feel that a little too convienant in that case (the rescue). Going by the way the trick normally is played, the person's tied down essentially spread-eagled (tied down on each corner) and then they close the curtain and the trick ensues. Chains around the waist normally aren't in the trick, but of course Carlini wouldn't take any chances. So, Ralph probably should've had to take apart four bindings, and the waist chain before he rolls Roberts over to safety. And, as far as injuries too, I wonder if Ralph rolling over Roberts and letting him drop to the floor was part of the problem. The table was a foot off the ground and while Roberts wouldn't have tried to stop himself from hitting the floor (being out and all), he still could get hurt a bit.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Dec 29, 2006 22:19:08 GMT -5
Make that Toby Roberts, btw. Huh? Then again the third trick could've been the spikes one where Roberts is securely fastened to the table, Carlini lights the candle to burn the rope, and Roberts passes out from fear just before Ralph enters in and rescues him. BTW, I did feel that a little too convienant in that case (the rescue). Going by the way the trick normally is played, the person's tied down essentially spread-eagled (tied down on each corner) and then they close the curtain and the trick ensues. Chains around the waist normally aren't in the trick, but of course Carlini wouldn't take any chances. So, Ralph probably should've had to take apart four bindings, and the waist chain before he rolls Roberts over to safety. And, as far as injuries too, I wonder if Ralph rolling over Roberts and letting him drop to the floor was part of the problem. The table was a foot off the ground and while Roberts wouldn't have tried to stop himself from hitting the floor (being out and all), he still could get hurt a bit. She said "Tony" originally and that is someone completely different. And I doubt a foot fall from the ground to Ralph's shoes would put him in INTENSIVE CARE for crying out loud! What kind of a wuss is he?
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Post by MelMac on Dec 29, 2006 22:31:30 GMT -5
Enough of one to warrant intensive care even though he fainted. Something had to have happened to him during the whole scenario (or he had high blood pressure) in order for another scenario to have taken place.
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Post by mmderdekea on Dec 31, 2006 0:48:41 GMT -5
I don't believe Bill was messing with anyone's mind in the card trick fiasco in the car. For one thing, Bill did pull his head back to be able to see the card without his glasses, so I'm sure he really saw it. He didn't have the energy to play games with the trick; he just wanted to focus on Carlini.
Pam, for a lawyer, has apparently a shockingly low level of concentration. To not even remember the card she just picked out! (Notice how next time she actually has to write the card down! Does she have attention deficient disorder??) I believe this scene happened just as it was HILARIOUSLY aired. Pam didn't really see her card well; Ralph chose the wrong card being the very bad card trick practitioner we were shown repeatedly he was; and, Bill's seeing the correct card highlighted both Pam's card remembering incompetence and Ralph's card choosing incompetence. Pam's last sentence, that at least the card was, at least, "red" was very funny. I love this scene and always play it over once or twice. It's the three of them working together just great. It's simply a delight to watch them.
Mona
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Post by MelMac on Dec 31, 2006 0:58:58 GMT -5
I don't think "incompetence" is the word, as they can read numbers. It's possible to read those suits wrong, and it's possible Pam read a 6 as a 9, especially if it's a spade or club (this is true with the red suits too). Still, Ralph is learning a trick, and so it's possible to be horrible at it for a long while. And conversely, it's possible Bill read the card wrong too, so it's just the fun banter of a trick going wrong. (Being an apprentice warlock in real life too, I know what it's like to have people laugh at tricks going awry in a performance. My floating egg trick not only didn't work, but I had a couple of smartrabbits tell me "Oh we use our magic dust to season our fries with" ) Even Pam kids Ralph about the "Floating card" at the end of the episode when she turns his hand around. Bill was actually amazed by that trick, not doing his "amazed" acting bit, thinking it was the suit... despite the fact Ralph clearly has his shirt unbuttoned two down to show that he's not wearing the suit. Carlini has always been a fave of mine, and it's one of the few eps in particular I remembered watching when it was first on (the pilot I remembered and I was 2 when it first aired). The water torture trick in particular I remembered, since I watched it on vacation on a TV you had to pay a quarter for every half hour to watch. That's the one show we watched the whole trip. Even have done a sequel story with him returning, which was a lot of fun to write as well.
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