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Post by MelMac on Apr 14, 2009 14:31:09 GMT -5
I can see where you're coming from butterfingers, and even if some don't see "GAHeroine" as canon (or "TGAH 2008" for that matter - which from the sound of things was considering this possibility given Morgan apparently is just able to take over the suit and go with no troubles), there still is that what-if for the Greenguys. I think there are some powers for the green guy's suit - but they probably don't use them because it might've been why their planet was destroyed. That said, the DNA issue as far as a non-green guy is not really thought out much - though debated some as Ralph mentions his hypothesis in "Hog Wild" that it might be related to his metabolism. Erasing people's minds could also be the aliens themselves - though I've always felt that part of "GAHeroine" was messy to begin with. In the same scene, the green guys actually asked Ralph and Pam "Do you think we should allow Mr. Maxwell to retain his memories?" then suddenly turn around and make him Holly's partner with no real reason. Then again, based on how it's filmed only - we are lead to believe that Bill gave up on Ralph, knowing that normally he'd knocked Ralph out and tied him up until he came to all his senses before using the suit for gain at the level he did. (I won't begin on the characterizations for every actor in the show). I do agree though - with the green guys' planet, we don't know what happened, or if he and the little green guy are part of the group or the only two left ("GAHeroine" was the only time really where there was three or more together). It'd been interesting to find out, but at the same time, it's good to have that mystery. In "Vanity," we have more of their lives shown, such as the sleepers, but it lead to more questions such as if Ralph and Bill were sleepers or not. Just a lot of questions with the suit - probably why the show is so endearing.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Apr 14, 2009 16:28:01 GMT -5
I am not sure the Greenguys would need magic suits. It sounds like they were a scientific race...or they might be part magical. Either way, they may not need suits. Their planet might have allowed for different things to happen and if they were born that way, no need for a booklet. They might have gotten the suit design from their own uniforms, but there is no reason to believe the suits themselves are magical. If they were, why would they need the ship to do everything. You think the suit could do it. ;D
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Post by MelMac on Apr 14, 2009 17:04:03 GMT -5
All I know is the green guy's suits might not be magical... but Ralph's has to be to some point (or at least "magical" in the scientific sense). Otherwise, he'd probably get hurt more because he didn't know some things. ;D
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Post by MortimerWest on Apr 15, 2009 15:52:19 GMT -5
Let me jump in here for a sec -
While I was working on the script I was privy to a number of original show documents and scripts which I looked over with a fine tooth comb. There were a number of ideas scribbled on a blank page at the back of Cannell's original screenplay - very interesting notes about the suit and what it could and couldn't do. Of course there was the note the suit did not work on anyone else but I noticed a few motes that said - The suit does not have any destructive powers only constructive - The first thing that popped into my head was "pyro" -- but I did take note that the suit could never shoot lasers or anything like that. The powers of the suit were a hint to what Ralph's mission on Earth was ,before "Divorce", that laid it all out. So going by that - which I know is probably not cannon, the suits powers are probably geared to help people more than say Superman who are geared more for fighting other bad guys. Just a little something I thought you might like.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Apr 15, 2009 16:07:41 GMT -5
Interesting, Mortimer.
I love hearing this background stuff. ;D
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Post by Videofox on Apr 15, 2009 16:39:49 GMT -5
I like to think that the Greenguys don't have any powers, and didn't begin constructing Suits until they decided to help other garden planets from suffering the same fate as their own. As a spacefaring race, the use of energy fields and gravitational forces were commonplace to them so they miniaturized that technology into suits that were tailor-made for each planet. Since inhabitants of one planet might be naturally stronger or weaker than humans, the suits could be customized. If Ralph were to meet another chosen one, their powers and abilities would probably not be identical. I had the same thought that the suit powers wouldn't have any destructive weaponry; Ralph probably would have blown his house up if it did! In the past I pictured the suit probably being able to generate a small electric current to "taser" a bad guy into unconsciousness, but after the recent rash of taser-related deaths, I'm rethinking that possibility! ;D
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Post by butterfingers on Apr 15, 2009 18:08:05 GMT -5
I like to think that the Greenguys don't have any powers, and didn't begin constructing Suits until they decided to help other garden planets from suffering the same fate as their own. As a spacefaring race, the use of energy fields and gravitational forces were commonplace to them so they miniaturized that technology into suits that were tailor-made for each planet. Since inhabitants of one planet might be naturally stronger or weaker than humans, the suits could be customized. If Ralph were to meet another chosen one, their powers and abilities would probably not be identical. I had the same thought that the suit powers wouldn't have any destructive weaponry; Ralph probably would have blown his house up if it did! In the past I pictured the suit probably being able to generate a small electric current to "taser" a bad guy into unconsciousness, but after the recent rash of taser-related deaths, I'm rethinking that possibility! ;D Well don't forget and the JJ Beck, his man servant gave Ralph some pointers that worked the same way. Like telacanisis!
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Post by mmderdekea on Apr 16, 2009 9:02:33 GMT -5
I believe the Green Guys simply wore clothes, regularly GG clothes. No suits, no magic. I agree with Videofox that they were a scientific race and the suits were separate from their own attire.
I'm don't agree with Mortimer that Ralph's "mission" if there was actually some defined mission was more to help people and not fight bad guys. For one thing, he was paired with Bill Maxwell (lucky Ralph!). For another, garden planets are destroyed by very bad guys, like generals planning to initiate a nuke attack on another country, not by helping a janitor get a board game created. I believe Ralph's best actions are to prevent the destruction of the planet, and anyone he can help along the way, well, that's nice, but that's not the point of the suit. The point is to save the world, over and over again, if necessary.
Mona
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Post by MelMac on Apr 16, 2009 10:14:14 GMT -5
I believe the Green Guys simply wore clothes, regularly GG clothes. No suits, no magic. I agree with our GG that they were a scientific race and the suits were separate from their own attire. I'm don't agree with Mortimer that Ralph's "mission" if there was actually some defined mission was more to help people and not fight bad guys. For one thing, he was paired with Bill Maxwell (lucky Ralph!). For another, garden planets are destroyed by very bad guys, like generals planning to initiate a nuke attack on another country, not by helping a janitor get a board game created. I believe Ralph's best actions are to prevent the destruction of the planet, and anyone he can help along the way, well, that's nice, but that's not the point of the suit. The point is to save the world, over and over again, if necessary. Mona Well... if one looks at it, helping people is what also helps save the world. Going by environmentalists, we are our own worst enemies by not recycling, using oil instead of "green" options and other natural resources that destroy the environment (therefore our world), and of course the Freon depleting the ozone issues. This could also have happened to the green guy's homeworld - they abused their resources: strip mining, not recycling, damaging chemicals, possibly war (no confirm of it in the show) and the world became a desolate wasteland. Sure, there are generals who have plagues or want to blow up the earth, but those are quick ways to destroy the planet and probably why Ralph was paired up with Bill instead of say Holly (they needed stronger backup). However, the green guys would also want him to do the smaller things as well to because the small things as we're seeing do add up to changes in the earth (in addition to natural ebbs and flows of the temperature seen in earth's history).
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Post by MortimerWest on Apr 16, 2009 11:04:30 GMT -5
I believe the Green Guys simply wore clothes, regularly GG clothes. No suits, no magic. I agree with our GG that they were a scientific race and the suits were separate from their own attire. I'm don't agree with Mortimer that Ralph's "mission" if there was actually some defined mission was more to help people and not fight bad guys. For one thing, he was paired with Bill Maxwell (lucky Ralph!). For another, garden planets are destroyed by very bad guys, like generals planning to initiate a nuke attack on another country, not by helping a janitor get a board game created. I believe Ralph's best actions are to prevent the destruction of the planet, and anyone he can help along the way, well, that's nice, but that's not the point of the suit. The point is to save the world, over and over again, if necessary. Mona Well... if one looks at it, helping people is what also helps save the world. Going by environmentalists, we are our own worst enemies by not recycling, using oil instead of "green" options and other natural resources that destroy the environment (therefore our world), and of course the Freon depleting the ozone issues. This could also have happened to the green guy's homeworld - they abused their resources: strip mining, not recycling, damaging chemicals, possibly war (no confirm of it in the show) and the world became a desolate wasteland. Sure, there are generals who have plagues or want to blow up the earth, but those are quick ways to destroy the planet and probably why Ralph was paired up with Bill instead of say Holly (they needed stronger backup). However, the green guys would also want him to do the smaller things as well to because the small things as we're seeing do add up to changes in the earth (in addition to natural ebbs and flows of the temperature seen in earth's history). Yeah - that's pretty much the way I think it was. Ralph was paired with Bill, but as we know the two are worlds apart. It's a universal ying and yang - but Ralph's powers - or at least what we know of them - are non-aggressive for the most part. Bill wants Ralph to fly to Russia and take out the commies, unlike Superman, I'm not sure Ralph could even pull off a task of that magnitude. He is local support for the most part. I agree with you that he and Bill are to the right the wrongs - but I also believe some of the finest moments are when he foud the little boy in the forest- saving his family from monumental loss. When Ralph helped Duffy sell his game, you'll notice it inspired others to try to make their dreams come true (not that it worked). These little things are contagious to the human spirit.
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Post by mmderdekea on Apr 16, 2009 12:17:56 GMT -5
Hello, Mortimer,
I agree in the big picture that helping individual people is important in life. And, it's nice that Ralph can do that in the suit. However, humans can do that without suits too--Search and Rescue Teams do amazing jobs finding lost hikers and people do all sorts of regular amazing jobs of helping each other out on a daily basis on Planet Earth. Suits are not required to step up and exhibit the best humankind has to offer, but yes, it's nice to have a suit to save a woman from a fire now and then, although all day long regular old firemen do that.
But, regular people cannot stop electrical monsters and crazy generals and laser toting whackjobs, and it's nice to have a suit wearer when a corrupt Mr. Powers is selling out to the Russians, or when a bomb will kill thousands of youths at a concert, and so forth. Suits are made for BIG jobs in my opinion--sure, a suit wearer can be a symbol for "Do-goodism" and SHOULD be a symbol for "Do-Goodism" but saving the president from being blown out of the sky no doubt preventing the beginning of WWWIII, is, to me, much more along the lines of what the GG gave the suit to Ralph AND Bill for, than having a teacher colleague of Ralph's decide to win money at gambling.
Notice that in the episodes where Ralph did supposedly altruistic "good", like Dreams and Good Samaritan, some bad always came out of it. Yet, Ralph and Bill together always won the day on the really big things. That says something to me.
Mona
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Post by MortimerWest on Apr 16, 2009 16:25:38 GMT -5
For every Mr.Powers there are a dozens bank robbers that could be stopped by ordinary means or two guys held up in a motel room, a drug truck stopped on the highway - Bill even admits he became too dependent on Ralph and the ease of using the suit instead of applying his own skills.
Allowing someone to step into the 4th dimension or talk to animals, would be useful to global stability - these are personal endeavors to allow Ralph to engage in more one on one basis.
I personally believe the Green Guys' home world was destroyed because of something they did as a people to the planet - not a war. That's just the way I prefer to look at it. I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way to see it. I see them as an intergalactic greenpeace.
"But, regular people cannot stop electrical monsters and crazy generals and laser toting whackjobs,"
Sure they could.
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Post by MelMac on Apr 16, 2009 17:11:57 GMT -5
For every Mr.Powers there are a dozens bank robbers that could be stopped by ordinary means or two guys held up in a motel room, a drug truck stopped on the highway - Bill even admits he became too dependent on Ralph and the ease of using the suit instead of applying his own skills. Allowing someone to step into the 4th dimension or talk to animals, would be useful to global stability - these are personal endeavors to allow Ralph to engage in more one on one basis. I personally believe the Green Guys' home world was destroyed because of something they did as a people to the planet - not a war. That's just the way I prefer to look at it. I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way to see it. I see them as an intergalactic greenpeace. I agree - I mean, from what we see, we don't have an evil green guy or alien trying to take over the Earth like say the Visitors in "V." If there was that case, I think there'd been more of them on the ship. Of course, there are the big issues that Ralph's suit is needed, such as "Operation: Spoilsport," but there are also those cases where one small thing - one person's choice can lead to larger, lasting environmental issues, as seen in things such as "Live at Eleven" and "Classical Gas." One has to look at Chernobyl to see the lasting effects of a nuclear meltdown (even with the sarcophagus, the plant still exuded tons of radiation after it's meltdown - and you cannot live there without basically committing suicide to this day), and who knows the long term effects of that nerve gas. Sure, it could've affected just humans, but the chemicals could seep into a possible underground water source (yes, even in a desert), and plants and animals could've also been affected (seen in a slightly different way in a MacGyver episode, but that case it was biological).
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Post by mmderdekea on Apr 16, 2009 20:03:27 GMT -5
I think it's a huge and fairly goofy stretch to say that Ralph talking to a dog or horse, if "talking" is the right word, would lead to global stability! Come on!
We don't know how the GG world was destroyed--we do know that they let Bill and Ralph do the little stuff as they wanted but when the world was threatened, the GG came right down, as we see in O:SS, and essentially told Bill and Ralph THIS is what they expected them to stop.
Stopping bank robberies and saving people in fires were simply extras that were how the two of them were to use the suit typically. Got no problem with that. But, what the GG really wanted was the BIG THINGS to be stopped, like world destroying actions.
If the show had gone on, massive environmental crises could have equally be addressed with Bill and Ralph having to stop poisonous outflows like that. But, I will never believe the GG gave Ralph the suit to save a horse from being killed for dog food, or to save a magician from certain death--although both things were very good things to do--or that those actions were as important to them as O:SS.
Notice anyway, that for the show itself, it understood the higher, bigger things were where Bill and Ralph should stay--so yes, we seem to be just saving a baseball team but then learn terrorists were involved; or we just seem to save Rose Harris from being kidnapped, only to learn the Russians are right off our shore, and so forth. The episodes were designed THEMSELVES to highlight more important things for suit use than just Do-Gooderism. Perhaps we should agree that the show itself knew what it wanted to say about the suit and the importance of having one around.
Mona
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Post by MortimerWest on Apr 16, 2009 21:23:22 GMT -5
LOL - I didn't meant o write that talking (which is the right word) to animals would lead to global stability - what I meant to say was if the bigger things were all the Green Guys had in mind when designing the suit were nuclear war and stopping bank robbers - they would have never included that power. The argument over what the Ralph and Bill's true mission was brought up on the show a number of times and the views the characters took were almost black and white.
When I met with Cannell over the movie - we talked about episodes he had in mind that were never done and one was the idea of other countries having their own suit wearers (I believe Culp wanted to bring Bill Cosby in for an episode with Cosby playing a different type of Maxwell character partnered with a suit owner). This episode was to point out that if Ralph were to try to fly into... I don't know - Russia, there would be a Russian with a suit to stop him. I liked this idea - the idea that Ralph and Bill were tied to their hemisphere (as said by JJ Beck) - who if you remember talked a lot about "How he tried to convince himself that what he was doing was for the betterment of mankind" - The betterment of mankind. This term is more than often used applied to humane activities than superheroics. The big stuff, like a nuclear war being started, is a big problem - and yes, Ralph and Bill were the only ones who could stop it - but they were on call. The Green Guys made a special trip to let them know not only that this was taking place, but that they were the only ones who could put a stop to it. This could be interpreted as it wasn't something they were always supposed to be doing (watchdogging nuclear warheads), but to put a pin in your daily work to handle this crisis.
We went trough a slew of episodes with Bill and Ralph busting bad guys and stopping war - only to have the Green Guys come down and tell them "You must try harder - you must be better". If a boss tells you that, it means you are not truly focused on the job you have been given.
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Post by MelMac on Apr 16, 2009 23:04:09 GMT -5
IMHO, it's not that goofy to think that talking to the animals could help global stability, not if you look deeper into that power. Animals have an instinct to begin with to help people - they've been known to rescue people who are hurt. If Ralph had that power, he could find out from a cat or dog the location of someone important who's been kidnapped or the location of a drug ring if they know where it is but Ralph can't vibe the location. Plus, a lot of the issues that have been huge environmental issues have included animals. These include deforestation, global warming, oil spills, earthquakes, et cetera. Having this power might help Ralph find out more on HOW that particular area is being destroyed abused. An example would be something like the Exxon Valdez. Bill could've had to come in and investigate the spill and everyone's giving out different answers. Ralph, on the other hand, has been helping an animal hurt by the slick and cleans it up. As he does, he hears the bird speak as to what happened, say as an example there were pirates who boarded the ship and intentionally caused the spill. Ralph then can relay the information to Bill, they both investigate, and save the day (And, as an added bonus, thanks to the suit Ralph is able to help clean up the oil spill long before it actually was). I think it's a combo of both small and large cases - most of the cases that Bill and Ralph tackled were part of a larger and more dangerous to the world's safety. Not everything was of course, such as Desparado, but a majority were. I have to say though that while the green guys probably didn't give Ralph the suit to "save a horse from being killed for dog food," or to save a magician from certain death, there is the flip side as well. Going by this, then the Greenguys didn't give Ralph the suit so Bill could ask him to use it to solve cold cases ("Lilacs") or find a gold mine ("The Lost Diablo"). Both of those are also frivolous on the part of Bill. But at the same time, what's the fun in having a suit with superpowers if you cannot use it for small things once in a while as well? I would say that the fun of the show was that it made you think even with the smaller cases - which has been shown in this lively debate. What can be seen as apparently meaningless powers (able to listen to animals) could be seen on a larger scale (what if they could help Ralph and Bill stop a huge rainforest tree stripping operation). It does, however, show the possibilities of the suit that we haven't seen explored (at least yet).
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Post by mmderdekea on Apr 17, 2009 9:22:10 GMT -5
I agree, as I've said, that using the suit for small things is good, and of course, very understandable for both Bill and Ralph. Nothing the matter with helping out a janitor, or a horse, or trying to find money to give to one's blind ex-partner, who one loves and considers a surrogate father. That's what gave the heart to the show. We all love watching that stuff, but it's not WHY, I believe Ralph and Bill GOT the suit.
In reality, Ralph didn't "talk" to ANY animal. Mostly what he did was calm down a horse, which people without suits do. He broke the animal the same way people without suits do, too, he just was able to HOLD ON because of the suit. He also had a dog pull Bill out of a car. Not really talking, either. We didn't see any clue he was Dr. Dolittle dressed in red jammies. We have no idea if he can actually communicate with any animal, but from the episodes we did see, such as Desperado, he CAN'T. Otherwise, why not tell the horse--hey, let me ride you so I can save you and your pal's lives--instead of having to go through the normal horse breaking process.
Can Ralph actually talk to animals--that's an extrapolation someone can believe in or not, as the show did not give us this answer for sure. But, we all have multiple extrapolations about the show, which is one of the very few benefits of it having had only a short lifespan--there were so many questions unanswered, we all answer them to our liking in our own minds.
Mona
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Post by MelMac on Apr 17, 2009 10:41:08 GMT -5
I agree, as I've said, that using the suit for small things is good, and of course, very understandable for both Bill and Ralph. Nothing the matter with helping out a janitor, or a horse, or trying to find money to give to one's blind ex-partner, who one loves and considers a surrogate father. That's what gave the heart to the show. We all love watching that stuff, but it's not WHY, I believe Ralph and Bill GOT the suit. In reality, Ralph didn't "talk" to ANY animal. Mostly what he did was calm down a horse, which people without suits do. He broke the animal the same way people without suits do, too, he just was able to HOLD ON because of the suit. He also had a dog pull Bill out of a car. Not really talking, either. We didn't see any clue he was Dr. Dolittle dressed in red jammies. We have no idea if he can actually communicate with any animal, but from the episodes we did see, such as Desperado, he CAN'T. Otherwise, why not tell the horse--hey, let me ride you so I can save you and your pal's lives--instead of having to go through the normal horse breaking process. Can Ralph actually talk to animals--that's an extrapolation someone can believe in or not, as the show did not give us this answer for sure. But, we all have multiple extrapolations about the show, which is one of the very few benefits of it having had only a short lifespan--there were so many questions unanswered, we all answer them to our liking in our own minds. Mona You're not entirely correct on the dog. In "Lilacs" Ralph DOES tell the dog as he sees the holograph to go help Bill and the dog, though initially hesitant, complies. He is speaking to the dog - even if in different locations, and telepathy is a form of communication (even if scientifically not proven. ) Therefore, he has actually talked to animals. That said, as with the microphone power, sometimes I felt that in both Culp's stories filmed there was just a new power added just to add it, and it wasn't as well explained as it could've been. But even so, just because you can talk to someone doesn't mean they'll listen. We see it with the dog and Desparado. Animal instincts are going to be much stronger than thought, so Desparado would react more to someone mounting him to ride than he'd listen to Ralph. You don't have to agree with me, but I would still maintain that Ralph's ability to actually tell the dog to help Bill is a sign of being able to communicate with the animals. Of course, we do not see him continue to use this power, so it could be one of the many that just were going to be one time. It also might've - had the show continued onto a full third season, been explored more. IMHO, the green guys gave Ralph the suit and Bill to assist him because they knew that there'd be a combination of small and large cases that would have an impact on the earth. There is always a ripple effect of the actions of helping one person (or small cases) - which we see clearly in "Dreams," as Ralph's helping the janitor lead to several people trying to fulfill their dreams - and the ensuing chaos it later created, some of which could harm people. Of course there would be large potentially earth destroying issues they'd face, but we really only see a handful of those in the series. That's similar to real life - we don't see catastrophic things happening every day such as Chernobyl, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Sept. 11 or even hurricanes. So, there would of course be times that the suit was used for smaller things - helping a janitor, using the suit's assistance to solve cold cases, using it to find a mine - all of which are small and relatively insignificant to Operation: Spoilsport.
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Post by MortimerWest on Apr 17, 2009 13:34:57 GMT -5
Great summary MelMac.
You also have to look at the fact that the show when boiled down is about the human condition - we see all stories, both small and great, on a personal level. The fun of talking about it is that we all enjoy the stories in different ways. When I first saw the shows I just took them at face value - but after years with no new GAH - and stepping into a career where I pick apart stories for a living, I sat down one day (when I was developing a pitch for the movie) and watched almost every episode in a week, taking notes and deconstructing the arcs and payoffs finally landing on why the show worked so well and also why so many movies and shows fail nowadays - GAH was brilliantly constructed and in my opinion could have lasted far longer than it's initial run.
Bill (Katt) once told me a story - Brandon Tartakoff was thrown a birthday party where all his friends got together and honored him one night - Cannell sent in a video talking to Brandon about being dignified (or something along those lines) - but the joke was Cannell was wearing the suit while talking. During a video homage they showed clips of all the shows Brandon worked on as producer and during the GAH ssegments Brandon said "Why did they ever cancel that show - it was so good". Now you have to remember, Brandon has a very full career and out of everything he'd done in his life THAT was the only show he made comment about. An Exec at NBC agreed and the next day worked feverishly to try and get the show back on the air (this was 1986). Well, the exec was smart enough to know the show's magic laid with the original cast and there was one person who refused the offer to return (and yes he regrets it to this day). I believe this may have lead to Heroine and it seems the exec was right - the magic was with the original cast.
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Post by MelMac on Apr 17, 2009 14:52:04 GMT -5
Thanks Mortimer, but I do have one question here: An Exec at NBC agreed and the next day worked feverishly to try and get the show back on the air (this was 1986). Well, the exec was smart enough to know the show's magic laid with the original cast and there was one person who refused the offer to return (and yes he regrets it to this day). I believe this may have lead to Heroine and it seems the exec was right - the magic was with the original cast. From what I have heard - at least lately, Katt turned it down because he was in "Perry Mason," and didn't want to leave that. Given the popularity of the original run, I could understand that (even though him not being fond of the suit was also a case too ). Plus, Connie was in "Hotel," and ABC wouldn't let her cross over networks. But you're right - that trio worked, and it said a lot when Cannell worked around Connie's pregnancy to keep her in the show instead of recast her like some would.
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